Author Topic: Last of a dying breed...  (Read 6779 times)

Offline Brooke

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Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #75 on: November 15, 2011, 02:17:07 AM »
There are many examples in the history of war of a smaller (but better-trained or better-equipped or more-proficient or more-motivated) force defeating a larger foe.  That's all I was saying.  There are examples in WWII of particular battles, but because in the end the larger armies won, you can't make the case that a smaller force won the war.  There are many other examples:  Marathon, decades of Hannibal vs. Romans, Crecy, Henry V at Agincourt, Caesar's conquest of Gaul, the defeat of Boudica, Alexander vs. Persians, etc.

Offline Ardy123

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Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #76 on: November 15, 2011, 02:18:56 AM »
The Allies prevailed due to the ability to wage and "Maintain" effective military stratigie, the Axis powers were not capable of "Sustaining" a effective military strategy.

The cold reality was that it became a war of attrition, a war the axis could not win. All the strategy in the world would not have saved them nor would the allies lost had they had the worst strategy around (~25x numerical adv). Debrody is correct, that often a much smaller attack force of axis pilots would attack a larger group, and many would come home but despite their success at surviving, they failed the objective, which was to stop the bomber formations. Which I would like to add is impossible for 26 fighters to do considering the numbers the allies put up. I would like to point out 3 things though...
1) Much like the British in the battle of the Britain, the Germans had an effective radar network that allowed them to engage with an alt advantage.
2) Against the 8th, which was not defended by fighters effectively until the '44, had different goals. The 8ths goal was to get to the target, not to pad their AH fighter rank or figure out who was grizz and gang the f**k sh**t out of him. On the same token,  the LW goal was to take out the bombers, not tangle with the p51s/p47s.
3) As the war progressed, the LW was ever more comprised of kids with less than 10 hours in the cockpit, with a few uber aces whom were able to survive the impossible.

As much as this sounds like I am contradicting my previous post, let me try to explain. It was one thing that expert Axis pilots could survive and another that they were 'successful' in completing the intended goal. It didn't matter if Galland or Heartman got 20 kills a flight, there were still 1200 bombers and 900 fighters left still progressing to the target, flattening the cities & destroying the factories.  The numbers were so mismatched it was hopeless, which goes back to my previous point, its a numbers game, and....

more toys = win!

« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 02:21:33 AM by Ardy123 »
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Offline 33Vortex

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Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #77 on: November 15, 2011, 02:38:22 AM »
Ok what did I miss, when did this become a noodle measuring contest? I thought the war had been fought already.

~500.000 aircrew and pilots died in the skies over Europe between 1939-1945. Reading this thread give me the impression you bunch think that was not enough!

 :bhead

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Offline zack1234

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Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #78 on: November 15, 2011, 02:39:40 AM »
 ;)
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Offline chipr

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Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #79 on: November 15, 2011, 02:49:50 AM »
That would be the allies.  Are you truely so ignorant to belive America won WWII alone?

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Offline Yarbles

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Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #80 on: November 15, 2011, 02:55:41 AM »
Since I started playing about 4 months ago, I've only flown American planes with exception to the jet planes and only been with the Bish in the MA. If I fly an allied plane, i.e Spit 9, it has to have the USA insignia.  My squaddies say that I'm missing out on planes that may better suit my style. My rebuttal is, "who won the war again?". I know there are tons of benefits from flying the axis planes, u can find out the strengths and weaknesses firsthand.

Is there any others like me? I truly doubt it.

chipr

Its probably my age but I would prefer the MA was Axis V Allies. The majority obviously disagree and want the option to fly all the planes in alegiance to a squad or chess piece. I try to fly allied planes mainly those you can put a roundel on the wing. Your rebuttal makes no sense it is a matter of immersion in the game but I dont sit at home eating powdered egg and drinking warm week beer with a leather helmet on (yet  :D).

While it can be argued the most significant battle of WW2 was the Battle of Britain the majority of the german army were normally deploid on the eastern front fighting the soviet union who also paid the highest price in terms of loss of life.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 02:58:24 AM by Yarbles »
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Offline zack1234

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Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #81 on: November 15, 2011, 03:12:57 AM »
Strategy is planning a effective military campaign.

The military campaign was attrition.

Peirre Closstermanns book has a very good chapter that explains that the German Airforce was still effective into 1944-45. When I get home I will quote the chapter,apparently the allied suffered a massive attack which left the Allied airforce at a disadvantage.

Lucky the Germans surrendered.

If they had not "Berlin,Hiroshima,Nagasaki" who knows.

In the end we are all now a big happy family  :banana:

I am still the best looking AH by the way :rofl

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Offline Debrody

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Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #82 on: November 15, 2011, 05:48:03 AM »
Guppy, thats unreal.
That time, during the "American Summer", Hartmann  and his squad had their base field in Vien. Our pilots were often winging with their german collegues, since Vien is just about 100 miles from Veszprém (our main field).
I can belive you that my numbers may be too much, but thats impossible they only lost 28.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 06:09:38 AM by Debrody »
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Offline 33Vortex

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Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #83 on: November 15, 2011, 06:36:55 AM »
Ok guys, there's only one way to settle this.  :devil

Have a rerun of the air war over Europe.

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Offline Tyrannis

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Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #84 on: November 15, 2011, 07:01:00 AM »
we can "should of, would of, could of" all we want, but the fact still remains.

The Allies won, the Axis lost.

None of this bickering is going to change that.

Offline Debrody

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Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #85 on: November 15, 2011, 07:43:09 AM »
we can "should of, would of, could of" all we want, but the fact still remains.

The Allies won, the Axis lost.
little arrogant guy, now let me know what you wanna bring out from that?
im getting curious.
Sounds pretty much like this: "<3 luftwannabe dudes, WE WAN TEH WARZ".
Persians won too... still, Das Ist Sparta!
 ;)
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Offline coombz

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Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #86 on: November 15, 2011, 07:49:22 AM »
little arrogant guy, now let me know what you wanna bring out from that?
im getting curious.
Sounds pretty much like this: "<3 luftwannabe dudes, WE WAN TEH WARZ".
Persians won too... still, Das Ist Sparta!
 ;)

maybe his point was - it's just history, none of this arguing on the forums is going to change a thing

if you want to re-write it in your head to help your ego then fine

what actually happened is fairly well documented :aok
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Offline Tyrannis

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Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #87 on: November 15, 2011, 08:01:44 AM »
little arrogant guy, now let me know what you wanna bring out from that?
im getting curious.
Sounds pretty much like this: "<3 luftwannabe dudes, WE WAN TEH WARZ".
Persians won too... still, Das Ist Sparta!
 ;)
yes. that's exactly what i meant. I just didnt want to hurt your feelings by being rude.
 :)


maybe his point was - it's just history, none of this arguing on the forums is going to change a thing

if you want to re-write it in your head to help your ego then fine

what actually happened is fairly well documented :aok
:aok

Offline 33Vortex

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Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #88 on: November 15, 2011, 08:04:41 AM »
 :lol

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Offline Ardy123

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Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #89 on: November 15, 2011, 01:04:27 PM »
~500.000 aircrew and pilots died in the skies over Europe between 1939-1945. Reading this thread give me the impression you bunch think that was not enough!

Its very sad that so many young men had to die because of a few megalomaniacs.
Yeah, that's right, you just got your rear handed to you by a fuggly puppet!
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