a BETTER strat system for all.

[Nathan60]

...which would effectively ground a good number of plane types such as the 109s, russian stuff, spits to a certain degree, among others.

Why do you consider ferrying supplies gameplay?  I'm here to shoot stuff down and blow stuff up, not cart parts and fuel around to different air bases.

You would  still have your  furballs  dont worry actually you would  end  up with a  CHOICE  of  furballs that you up  to fly into  with 25-50% fuel anyway. Not every base is  ging to have  fuel issues and plenty of  others willsee no problem in runnig supplies. As it is  now you have  a  choice  of  1-2  massive horde fests on each  front. Even taking bases to 25% wont stop most players from  hordeballing  at two close bases, and the pickers  will still be  able to up from bases further back and  come in  abve the hordeball. This  idea  take nothing away from  anybody    it  adds  to  options  avail to players.

[Wiley]

In my case: Enhancing gameplay (and long term attractiveness... yes, I'm being selfish)  by improving (restoring?) the variety of (combat) options. Strats and strat raids used to play a larger role. I would like to see that back, or even being of more importance than ever. Not to kill the tactical combat element of AH, but to provide another level of gameplay on top of it.

I can't argue with that.  The problem is...

How many don't do deep raids because there is no reason to do so?

What's the appropriate carrot though?  A lot of people seem to be locked into the spitfire factory mentality of AW, wanting their bombing to sap the enemy's capability.  It seems to me a lot of the bomber guys can't see past that.

If you use points as the carrot, and make the points value too good, you'll get wall to wall milkrunners flying in off hours to pad their scores, while people who care about score but only fly in primetime won't be able to compete with the ease of the unopposed milkruns.  That'll result in disgruntlement.

I agree, it needs to be an incentive, not a requirement.

I personally believe part of the problem is, bombing is simply not compelling gameplay.  In my mind, bombing consists of taking off, climbing, and pushing a button.  To be honest I don't understand how anybody finds that entertaining.  Gunnery if bandits appear is fun for me, but I really just don't see the attraction otherwise.  It doesn't matter if you're hitting tactical targets or strats, at the end of the day, you took off, climbed for a while, and pushed a button at the appropriate time.

It seems to me that might be why bombers are often looking for their contributions to mean something.  It seems to me that on some level, possibly without realizing it, they are 'doing a job' and expecting a reward for doing it, be it points or an effect on the enemy or whatever.

When I fly a fighter, I am doing it for the pure joy of flying a fighter in an open arena.  Regardless of what I find in the sky, the fact that I've got enemies out there and am hunting them is fun.  It doesn't matter if it was a heavy fighter inbound to a field with the intent of porking it, or a new guy in a spixteen that took off on autoclimb and headed in my direction.  I get to interact with them, and that's fun for me.  The reason he is there, and the benefit my side got from killing him is secondary in most cases (guys hitting dar and sometimes ord being the exception).

Wiley.

[Wiley]

You would  still have your  furballs  dont worry actually you would  end  up with a  CHOICE  of  furballs that you up  to fly into  with 25-50% fuel anyway. Not every base is  ging to have  fuel issues and plenty of  others willsee no problem in runnig supplies.

So the backbone of your idea is, you're depending on these 'others' always being around to run supplies?  Again, why should they have to?  How is carting in supplies compelling gameplay?

As it is  now you have  a  choice  of  1-2  massive horde fests on each  front. Even taking bases to 25% wont stop most players from  hordeballing  at two close bases, and the pickers  will still be  able to up from bases further back and  come in  abve the hordeball. This  idea  take nothing away from  anybody    it  adds  to  options  avail to players.

It adds the option of running supplies to the base?  That's already an option, it restores dar and ords faster.  Take a look at how often that happens in the main.

The funny thing is, porking to 25% would probably impact players like me almost the least possible out of all people, other than GVers.  Most planes I fly are of the high fuel capacity variety, it would impact my gameplay negligibly.  It would, however, force a lot of other people to change their gameplay habits.

Wiley.

[Nathan60]

So the backbone of your idea is, you're depending on these 'others' always being around to run supplies?  Again, why should they have to?  How is carting in supplies compelling gameplay?

It adds the option of running supplies to the base?  That's already an option, it restores dar and ords faster.  Take a look at how often that happens in the main.

The funny thing is, porking to 25% would probably impact players like me almost the least possible out of all people, other than GVers.  Most planes I fly are of the high fuel capacity variety, it would impact my gameplay negligibly.  It would, however, force a lot of other people to change their gameplay habits.

Wiley.

Stop beating the  whole  "but you have to run sups  thing"   the  backbbone  of my idea is  to give  peoplle  who want to bomb, targets that matter. No,  nobody has to run sups, at all  its  just gonna take a lil  longer for  fuel, ords, troops  the aa guns  dar fh/Bh,cv, sb  to  reup if you don't.The  reason people  don't do it in the mains  now  is  because its a pointless act. You can just wait 5 mins  and   the base  is  back up so its pointless to resup a base. I dont  want  to  fight in  a  horde all the  time  and  I dont want  to  bomb something like  the fuel on a base only to have  it  repop by the time I've  made  2 runs over said base. Also, seperating the strats will  give  people options of  bombing somehting of value  and not having to  take  2 hours to do it. Why  keep things down longer? So that more people  up to  defend  something being bombed  and  its  not so boring for the bomber guy, also actually achieving something in a bomber  other than milk running towns  is  something worth working towards.

[Wiley]

Stop beating the  whole  "but you have to run sups  thing"

Why?  It's a pretty sizable downside to your suggestion.

Why  keep things down longer? So that more people  up to  defend  something being bombed

Most of the time in the MA, people consider a base under attack lost if the attacking force is sufficiently large.  Why will that change if the stuff stays down longer?

It used to be possible to pork fuel to 25% and it was changed specifically because it was unpopular.

Wiley.

[Lusche]

What's the appropriate carrot though?  A lot of people seem to be locked into the spitfire factory mentality of AW, wanting their bombing to sap the enemy's capability.  It seems to me a lot of the bomber guys can't see past that.

That's a generalization I do not agree with. A few players have asked for Spitfire factories, that's all.

Two carrots would be score and effect.
Score is actually the lesser carrot, as players tend to play much less for score as universally assumed. And of course, if the only score factor would be increased players would "milk" them during off hours - but that is already happening all the time! It's just not the strats that are being milked, but town centers. Much easier, less predictable for the defender and so on. People will always "milk" to some extend, and I would actually prefer them trying to boost their score on the strats. Because I do think the most distant and best protected target should yield the best harvest.

And you will see, milkers converging on a single target will also result in more defenders. A 25k bomber dropping town after town is rarely hunted down because of the erratic nature of his flight path. Bombers regularly going for a single target 5 sectors deep in the enemy territory is a different thing. I speak from experience.

But for me, the effect is far more important. Right now, if you judge the effort necessary to really make an impact by bombing the strats and then you take the same effort and apply it to the smash'n'grab routine... well, the math is pretty simple. The imbalance is so great it's a no brainer. The only "reasonable" target are bases.

I just want more diversity, more options. More valid target for bombers, not only in form of a single main strat center, but also by some kind of zonal targets like smaller cities or railyards, to give medium bombers too a target different from bases.

[Nathan60]

Why?  It's a pretty sizable downside to your suggestion.

Most of the time in the MA, people consider a base under attack lost if the attacking force is sufficiently large.  Why will that change if the stuff stays down longer?

It used to be possible to pork fuel to 25% and it was changed specifically because it was unpopular.

Wiley.

Its a downside for  who? The furballers that won't be  effected as much as you're thinking,your  2nd point has already  been answered, If  stuff stays down  the bombers  have hit and  destroyed a VIABLE  non  milkrun target and then have  actually accomplished somehting. As to why this  is  good? It  gives people who like  fighters but dis-like the hordefests something to do. Moveing the  strats from one  centralised  point further  back from the lines to a zone format closer to more bases means  that you dont have to up  lancs  or  a b17 on 2 hour  missions. You up a b26  maybe with a friend in a pony escort  climb to about 10k (Since the  strat isnt  8 sectors away) hit a  factory that isnt  going to be  "repaired "  by the time you get back, land then re up  a heavy jug and  pork ord  at a feild  and feilds  around  the area until  someone ups to stop you. Beats the hell out of up a pony, climb to 15k  pick  somebody thats  in fight in the middle of a  hordeball, rinse  wash and repeat. You want  to keep  all the planes  viable at a  feild  ,  defend it. Not all feilds  are going to get porked  and  once again you will still have you  1 sector furball you talking about  taking away something. This  doesnt do that at all , it  give more people  more options.

[Nathan60]

Lusche,  expressing this  much, much better than I am  maybe  a few differencees  but just  getting a  ground work on some kind  of  a  new/old system would  be  a ood thing  I think. Possibly working in  Jugglers  Idea  about delayiinga  flip  or  atleast delaying how  fast AA guns and such  repop after a flip.

[Wiley]

That's a generalization I do not agree with. A few players have asked for Spitfire factories, that's all.

Aircraft factories, ability to take fuel down to 25%, increased ENY for the enemy.  The actual mechanism takes on several different forms.  What I meant by the 'spitfire factory mentality' is basically wanting the ability to lower the enemy's capabilities because they feel it will be a motivator for defense.

Two carrots would be score and effect.
Score is actually the lesser carrot, as players tend to play much less for score as universally assumed. And of course, if the only score factor would be increased players would "milk" them during off hours - but that is already happening all the time! It's just not the strats that are being milked, but town centers. Much easier, less predictable for the defender and so on. People will always "milk" to some extend, and I would actually prefer them trying to boost their score on the strats. Because I do think the most distant and best protected target should yield the best harvest.

And you will see, milkers converging on a single target will also result in more defenders. A 25k bomber dropping town after town is rarely hunted down because of the erratic nature of his flight path. Bombers regularly going for a single target 5 sectors deep in the enemy territory is a different thing. I speak from experience.

Reasonable.

But for me, the effect is far more important. Right now, if you judge the effort necessary to really make an impact by bombing the strats and then you take the same effort and apply it to the smash'n'grab routine... well, the math is pretty simple. The imbalance is so great it's a no brainer. The only "reasonable" target are bases.

I completely agree.

I just want more diversity, more options. More valid target for bombers, not only in form of a single main strat center, but also by some kind of zonal targets like smaller cities or railyards, to give medium bombers too a target different from bases.

What would bombing these strats do exactly though?  Affect rebuild times?  Give you something different looking to drop bombs on?

Wiley.

[Wiley]

up  a heavy jug and  pork ord  at a feild  and feilds  around  the area until  someone ups to stop you.

What is stopping you from doing this now again?

Wiley.

[Nathan60]

What is stopping you from doing this now again?

Wiley.

People do but nobody ups to stop you because they know, just  about the time your hitting the  next base over, the 1st base you hit has already repopped,and  so  its  a  pointless endevour but I think you know  that. Keeping  things  down longer isnt  going to kill the  hordes since a good many people like to horde, but  a system with more things for the non horders  to do wont take  away from anybody the  way you think it will as there  will just not be  enough people porking, and  some people do run sups  and  some people do leave the  horde to go   pounce on a  4 plane  jug raid  approchinga  base at 10 k.

[Nathan60]

Whens the last time you upped  and flew to 25 k  to  fight some bombers, or  sat near an enemy base and  did racetracks until somebody  upped to fight you? I am horrible at this and should hide in a horde but I do those things because I am sick of only fighting horde on horde.

[Lusche]

Aircraft factories, ability to take fuel down to 25%, increased ENY for the enemy.  The actual mechanism takes on several different forms.  What I meant by the 'spitfire factory mentality' is basically wanting the ability to lower the enemy's capabilities because they feel it will be a motivator for defense.

the thing is, "aircraft factories" and so in just the first thing that comes to the mind of many players. Imagination is somewhat limited, especially when it comes to considering all the effects of any proposed change/addition.
However, I do see these requests just as a expression of the desire to have something "meaningful" to bomb. That deeper wish could be granted without adapting the actual proposals of aircraft factories or any similar "overkill"

What would bombing these strats do exactly though?  Affect rebuild times?  Give you something different looking to drop bombs on?

Similar to the central strats, I can think of many possible options, ranging from being simply the zone factories of old to being railyards that act as an additional supply modifier for a given zone (I'd prefer the latter).

I can imagine and would actually favor even totally different roles for strats, as THE main target to capture or keep down for some defined time to win the war. Capturing bases would be the means to get there. But unfortunately  I don't see that as an option at all, as it would require a massive restructuring of the MA.

[Wiley]

Whens the last time you upped  and flew to 25 k  to  fight some bombers, or  sat near an enemy base and  did racetracks until somebody  upped to fight you? I am horrible at this and should hide in a horde but I do those things because I am sick of only fighting horde on horde.

Every day I've flown in the last month or two.  My primary role is as an altmonkey seeking other altmonkeys to destroy.  I am looking for either incoming buffs or enemy fighters hanging out over the furball looking for a pick so I can give them an even fight, or at least drive them down into the furball when they split-s under me because our E states are even.  That is how I get my fun.

Similar to the central strats, I can think of many possible options, ranging from being simply the zone factories of old to being railyards that act as an additional supply modifier for a given zone (I'd prefer the latter).

I can imagine and would actually favor even totally different roles for strats, as THE main target to capture or keep down for some defined time to win the war. Capturing bases would be the means to get there. But unfortunately  I don't see that as an option at all, as it would require a massive restructuring of the MA.

And that's part of what I mean when I say they're painted into a corner.  I guess the core of my point is, I believe the strat situation as it stands now can't be altered meaningfully without a complete rework, and a complete rework has the potential to have drastic consequences if it's not well received and executed.

Wiley.

[Lusche]

And that's part of what I mean when I say they're painted into a corner.  I guess the core of my point is, I believe the strat situation as it stands now can't be altered meaningfully without a complete rework

I disagree. Only my last "vision" of am entirely new role would need such an (unlikely) complete rework. Changing down times of factories, or their impact on field item downtimes for example would be just a matter of turning a few knobs, nothing more.