PBY5-A

[Karnak]

PBY is capable of scouting for carriers, reporting back - staying out of range of enemy aircraft and torpedoing carriers.
How is this not viable for a scenario?

Because while it is scouting for carriers almost everybody else who is participating in the scenario is sitting in the tower twiddling their thumbs.  Further, should it fail to find the CV and instead be shot down by some roving A6M2, where does the scenario go from there?

What are the Japanese supposed to be using to scout for the American CVs?  If they are using a B5N or D3A, does that not give the Japanese a much better chance to find the Americans first due to their higher speeds?

[Butcher]

Because while it is scouting for carriers almost everybody else who is participating in the scenario is sitting in the tower twiddling their thumbs.  Further, should it fail to find the CV and instead be shot down by some roving A6M2, where does the scenario go from there?

What are the Japanese supposed to be using to scout for the American CVs?  If they are using a B5N or D3A, does that not give the Japanese a much better chance to find the Americans first due to their higher speeds?

Basically scenarios right now - are limited to 1 sector for carriers, because we have no scout crafts, For example "your enemy carrier will be in sector 1.1.x ". Instead it could be put on a historical course while scout crafts have to span out and search for it. Sure the B5N would be faster unless the Pete is added to the game, that just means the Japanese get to meet American F4F's and SBD's quicker. The Raid will launch in the general direction of the fleet, as did midway.

Secondly if there is any Clouds in the game, it would certainly hide a PBY, which flew no higher then 6k when spotting for carriers. Sure you can bring a few A6m's down to the deck, that just causes a Midway effect and you lose a carrier. Even if you put 1-2 A6ms on the deck, what chance it will find the PBY? Also how could the PBY not already Report back the location of the enemy fighters? Surely A6m's didn't fly from land base during Midway/Moresby/Coral Sea, so clearly if you run into an A6m you report it and the Strike group can be sent on their way.

It brings a higher level of strategy to the game then "Btw your strike group launches from C1 to attack enemy carrier in sector 1.1.x - when you could put the carrier on a course and make people find it - adding a level of uncertainty.

Sure it wouldn't be flown in the Main Arena much, neither would the Emily - difference over 3,000 PBY's were built while barely over 90 Emilys were built.

[EVZ]

PBY is capable of scouting for carriers, reporting back - staying out of range of enemy aircraft and torpedoing carriers.
How is this not viable for a scenario?

It's perfectly viable ... envisioning an entire scenario cast sitting on their thumbs and waiting is just an exaggerated objection. There is probably SOME truth in the notion that the plane doesn't fit perfectly into the game in it's present incarnation ... But ? The concept here is a game that is EVOLVING and that isn't something that you just wave a magic wand to accomplish instantaneously ... The Storch is an experimental step in this evolution, the PBY could be an extension of that concept moving towards a more tactical game environment. 

[SpencAce]

hey, just wanna give a schout out to EVZ and butcher for all there support on this topic

[EVZ]

hey, just wanna give a schout out to EVZ and butcher for all there support on this topic

It's funny, about the same time you started this thread I mentioned the PBY in a thread on the observation version of the "Champ" (? L3 birddog ?). Obviously great minds think alike!

Given the recent announcement of the STORCH I'd say it's obvious that High Tech has been following these "Observation Plane" threads and found them interesting enough for a trial addition. I think it's very possible we will eventually see a seaplane of some variety added. I think the PBY would be an outstanding choice. 

[SpencAce]

oh ya, defenitly.. i can't wait to see how this goes

[Butcher]

It's funny, about the same time you started this thread I mentioned the PBY in a thread on the observation version of the "Champ" (? L3 birddog ?). Obviously great minds think alike!

Given the recent announcement of the STORCH I'd say it's obvious that High Tech has been following these "Observation Plane" threads and found them interesting enough for a trial addition. I think it's very possible we will eventually see a seaplane of some variety added. I think the PBY would be an outstanding choice. 

It makes sense to have an Observation class, you can look at it and say "it carries no defensive armament and is slow" well same was said about the M18 being it had no armor and a moderate gun - however I see them running all over the place, I doubt the PBY would be a Hanger queen given the right situation.

Give it two torpedoes or some ords, and I am quite sure its loiter time would make a very nice GV killer.

[Karnak]

Sure it wouldn't be flown in the Main Arena much, neither would the Emily - difference over 3,000 PBY's were built while barely over 90 Emilys were built.

I think the Emily would be flown, particularly if it had formations enabled, and it might as they did do formation bombing with it.  The low production numbers on the Emily are certainly an issue, but for the just over 100 H8K2's built, it saw tons of service being in constant use from 1942 to the end of the war.  Obviously the PBY-5 saw more hours of use, to claim otherwise would be absurd, but that alone doesn't make it the better choice for the game, otherwise we'd be getting the Russian Po-2 biplane instead of the Fi156.

[Drano]

Gotta love you guys. The three of you newbs got less than 2 years experience in this game added together. But you know better, right? Bet none of you have ever participated in a scenario--ever. Never had to plan one or command a side or group in one either. I have done all of those more than a couple of times over the years. I know you haven't because if you did you'd know things like extended loiter time and three hour frame are not synonymous. You'd also know that in scenarios involving carrier group targets, the search area is larger--usually 4 or even 6 sectors. Sometimes it's 4 in FSO. That said, there's simply no time for this. I* totally get* what the plane did in the war but genii--we don't have any 10-12 hour missions here.  Who's gonna set aside one of their precious Saturday afternoons if they know the deal is wait in the tower until scout4 finds the carrier--or not--then you can take off--or not-- but if you do hope you make it out to the target and back in the allotted time (that's right because if you don't you're considered lost). But you know that right? Heaven forbid the guy flying scout4 discos. That never happens. Seriously? Who would want that? I'm just pointing this out to you because I can. I've done it and you haven't.

There is absolutely no use for this bird in any of the other arenas. I haven't seen any argument from any of you that says otherwise. There's just no massive area to search in any of the arenas in use. The carriers come from known ports and will be heading generally into an enemy area at which point the actually capable aircraft already in the game will take care of business. The areas of open water on our MA maps are more like bays than oceans. It's not that big a deal. Never needed a dedicated observation plane to find a carrier group before--so why do we need one now? Carriers get sunk multiple times per night when I'm on. What's the big deal? A PBY would make that happen better? Sorry but I'm missing it. If somebody's hiding one--big deal. It'll come out eventually. This bird in real life generally didn't operate in daylight in forward areas for a reason. Each of our entire arenas are forward areas--and it's almost always daytime. Sorry but I don't see the fit. This is a target drone at best.

My problem here is I see a couple of guys just making a lot of noise here about a plane that the rest of us that have actually played this game for a long, long time see little to no merit in having. It's not just me. I'm hardly the voice of the game. Recent additions--I get. They have a use. It's obvious. The M-18? What was the problem there? I'm not a GV guy but it seems the idea is it makes up for it's lack of armor with it's ability to outflank it's targets with greater speed and it does just that. We have regular ground battles using tanks here so it fits. No problem. Lots of people are using it so a lot of people must feel the same way. The Storch? Meh. I think the jury is still out on that. Early beta testers are saying it's incredibly vulnerable to ground fire. So I'll be interested to see how it'll accomplish it's mission of spotting any better than I could from another fighter right now. You'll be able to see farther--yeah I get it. But what good is that when you're description of the tank's location is something like--he's behind that tree on your left--ya can't miss him. Seriously? I know--the idea is to drop smoke on him but apparently you can't get close enough to do that safely. The 88flak looks like a fun weapon and has an obvious use in the game. It's something that's been missing for a while IMO. We're about to add the Me-410 and while it wasn't my first choice in the recent poll I think it'll see a lot of action in the game. Not an obvious missing link but it'll get used I think.

What I see here from peeps looking for stuff like this or night or friggin submarines is they generally don't want to get shot at. Well--we do that here. That's part of the game. If you don't like getting shot at--this game might not be for you. If you want to get better at this game there's ways that can happen. But that ain't gonna happen in 2 weeks or 6 months either. The learning curve is steep and looking for something on the margins isn't gonna make that happen for ya. Get in the game.

[USRanger]

[Drano]

Beautiful Ranger. Without question.

[EVZ]

Bet none of you have ever participated in a scenario--ever.

Maybe you should check the list of top 10 bomber pilots in EACH of the 3 frames flown in the present scenario? Maybe you'd like to talk to my flight leader about it ? Maybe you know who HE is ?

I've done it and you haven't.

I won't repeat some of the stories I've been told about WHAT you've done ...

[Drano]

I stand on my very solid reputation. By all means tell.

[Vart69]

Personnally, I feel that these A/C deserve to be in here even if they are queens. I'd have a use for them * a goon that can land on water * SUCH a dumb idea NOT!

Oh, Can I have a MAVIS too!

I also would like my manual transmission put back in my gv's!

[Karnak]

Where are you guys getting that it would be a "goon" that can land on water?  In no way would any flying boat be a "goon".  Not a single one of them dropped paratroopers.