Author Topic: Scratch "Across the board" ENY - Make it USEFUL instead  (Read 1980 times)

Offline SPKmes

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Re: Scratch "Across the board" ENY - Make it USEFUL instead
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2011, 02:31:19 PM »
I say use ENY system in a different way .....  when and as ENY kicks in it affects downtimes ....
Times pull out of the air as I have no real idea of downtimes...... if a hanger goes down and normal re-up time is 15 mins....for every increment of ENY this time shortens .... when you get upto the likes of where you can only fly ENY 40 planes..well hahahaha  you have hangers down for 2 mins (work fast boys hahaha)....Obviously this is an extreme exaggeration on the times thing but you can see how it would work... this was something I had put in the wishlist with a couple of other things coupled with it...but getting things across in text is just not my thing... could this be implemented....would it work...I really don't know...but it would still allow people to up the plane they want and stop people jumping sides when one is about to win the war as the community would self police in a sense as if there was a mass influx the opporunity for the takes becomes harder .....Obviously this was before the 1 hr side change.....

Offline Lusche

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Re: Scratch "Across the board" ENY - Make it USEFUL instead
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2011, 02:44:22 PM »
I say use ENY system in a different way .....  when and as ENY kicks in it affects downtimes ....
Times pull out of the air as I have no real idea of downtimes...... if a hanger goes down and normal re-up time is 15 mins....for every increment of ENY this time shortens .... when you get upto the likes of where you can only fly ENY 40 planes..well hahahaha  you have hangers down for 2 mins (work fast boys hahaha)....Obviously this is an extreme exaggeration on the times thing but you can see how it would work...


It wouldn't work well as a balancer. Because the side having such massive numbers hardly has it's hangars down at all. The defenders are too busy with defending to be able to do organised attacks on the FHs of (most of the time several) fields. And without ENY limit the numerous side will have even less problems in stopping any attack on them. In the end, eny would have about no practical effect at all.
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Offline SPKmes

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Re: Scratch "Across the board" ENY - Make it USEFUL instead
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2011, 03:06:50 PM »

It wouldn't work well as a balancer. Because the side having such massive numbers hardly has it's hangars down at all. The defenders are too busy with defending to be able to do organised attacks on the FHs of (most of the time several) fields. And without ENY limit the numerous side will have even less problems in stopping any attack on them. In the end, eny would have about no practical effect at all.


Ummm that is what I was trying to say ...switch all your thinking the other way I think my inablity to get things across in the written script may have confused things......the team with high eny is the one with the shorter downtimes on their opposition buildings and the like therefore defenders  with of the lower numbers side have quicker reinstate times for their guns hangers buildings etc whilst having.....whilst the high number side has to work faster to beat the shortened downtimes of their opposition...the low number side then has normal downtimes to work with ....

Offline Chilli

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Re: Scratch "Across the board" ENY - Make it USEFUL instead
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2011, 03:42:20 PM »
What counts as "limited production?"  50? 100? 250? 500?  1000? 2500? 5000?

2)  Each strat is now tied to manufacture of certain late production and limited production aircraft  Meant to read as, "2)  Each strat is now tied to manufacture of certain late production and/ or limited production aircraft

To back Karnak up here:

For Germany the Me410 had over 1000 made and was considered a lesser produced variant.

For Italy the C.202 had over 1000 made and was one of the MOST produced fighters in Italian history

For the U.S. 1000 would barely be enough to gear up and train most planes.



Further, does it matter what the losses are in this game, as compared to history? Historically, a P-51 pilot had a slim chance of EVER seeing the enemy during the war. In this game you're gauranteed to run into many enemy every single time you up, multiple times a day. There are more deaths, but this is because there are thousands of times better chances of getting into danger. You really can't even compare them.

Okay, do we entirely know what the current ENY cost system is related to?  I mean, HTC must have gathered information, other than the planes most whined about being uber.  Also, since we are able to pull up numbers that show that Ponies are extremely popular and were in production late in the war, it just seems reasonable that would most likely be on that list and just so happens to correlate to a ENY cost number. 

While using the current ENY cost numbers, damage to a particular strat would cause downtime for usage of equipment associated with low ENY cost and that manufacturer.

Anyhow,  ENY currently does nothing to me except keep me from posting missions.  I can do the same thing with TBM or F4U 1 as a P51D.  So, back to my original thought, "scratch the ENY system that whipes out all aircraft across the board below a certain ENY."  Take the ENY system and tweak it to involve player action while giving the edge to the underdog in terms of downtime.  Since this is only a wish, and I agree will have its downsides, I will leave it with to its merits, and not the imperfections in player laissez faire (wanting things done for them).

At least Tongs and I seem to be speaking the same language.  :)

Offline Karnak

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Re: Scratch "Across the board" ENY - Make it USEFUL instead
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2011, 06:37:39 PM »
2)  Each strat is now tied to manufacture of certain late production and limited production aircraft  Meant to read as, "2)  Each strat is now tied to manufacture of certain late production and/ or limited production aircraft
You're still not saying what you would base it on.  How many of an aircraft have to have been produced for it to be a limited production aircraft?  What is a "Late production" aircraft?  Is it different for the European and Pacific theaters?

Quote
Okay, do we entirely know what the current ENY cost system is related to?  I mean, HTC must have gathered information, other than the planes most whined about being uber.  Also, since we are able to pull up numbers that show that Ponies are extremely popular and were in production late in the war, it just seems reasonable that would most likely be on that list and just so happens to correlate to a ENY cost number. 
The current ENY number is based on HTC's estimate of the unit's impact on the arena.  This estimate is a combination of historical data (historical effects in AH, not WWII) and performance based capability estimates.

Quote
While using the current ENY cost numbers, damage to a particular strat would cause downtime for usage of equipment associated with low ENY cost and that manufacturer.

Anyhow,  ENY currently does nothing to me except keep me from posting missions.  I can do the same thing with TBM or F4U 1 as a P51D.  So, back to my original thought, "scratch the ENY system that whipes out all aircraft across the board below a certain ENY."  Take the ENY system and tweak it to involve player action while giving the edge to the underdog in terms of downtime.  Since this is only a wish, and I agree will have its downsides, I will leave it with to its merits, and not the imperfections in player laissez faire (wanting things done for them).

At least Tongs and I seem to be speaking the same language.  :)
Tough.  The solution is easy.  When your side has a significant numbers advantage don't try to post missions using things like P-51Ds and Bf110G-2s.

Basically you are suggesting things that remove the force balancing element of ENY.  That is its purpose and changes that eliminate that are not going to happen.
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Offline W7LPNRICK

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Re: Scratch "Across the board" ENY - Make it USEFUL instead
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2011, 07:53:47 PM »
If a certain % of players were voluntarily switched to a different country to level the eny, this would fix the whole thing. At what % does ENY kick in? Make that the magic number for "Floaters" (people who really don't care who they fly with) to get bounced, or make it a lottery, where ya gotta take your turn. I'd even volunteer for that to keep ENY out of it.  :salute
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Scratch "Across the board" ENY - Make it USEFUL instead
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2011, 09:14:14 PM »
How well is that working?  Will ENY ever ground TBM, P38G, P51B, SpitV, Ju88, A6m2, Hurri 1, P47D25, F4F, F4U 1, Bf109 E, Fw190 F8, P40, P39, D3A ?? I couldn't ask for better equipment, so it fails to handicap me.  Sorry, but the best argument that I can find for ENY is to limit the use of Me262s, other than that it is clumbsy and only causes players to log off.   In fact, logging off seems to be the logical solution.   ENY is not fine, it is intrusive, stealth, and extremely good for one thing, quietly grounding missions. 


I think it works well. YOU may not feel handicapped flying a 38G, 51B and so on, but many people are. Try getting people to fill out a mission using them. Yes it may be "extremely good for one thing, quietly grounding missions" but that is what it's suppose to do. To help slow the attack of the force with the overwhelming numbers. Also, if people are loggin off due to ENY, it is their loss. As you pointed out there are a number of great planes that are not effected by ENY.

Offline Chilli

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Re: Scratch "Across the board" ENY - Make it USEFUL instead
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2011, 04:48:05 AM »

I think it works well. YOU may not feel handicapped flying a 38G, 51B and so on, but many people are. Try getting people to fill out a mission using them. Yes it may be "extremely good for one thing, quietly grounding missions" but that is what it's suppose to do. To help slow the attack of the force with the overwhelming numbers. Also, if people are loggin off due to ENY, it is their loss. As you pointed out there are a number of great planes that are not effected by ENY.

Okay Fugitive,

I have been a bit cranky, so forgive me.  Anything that discourages players to the point they log off, decreases the potential game play options.  Also, I suggest that you post a few missions via mission planner to understand the dilemma better.  Post a mission that does not include a popular plane and good luck finding more than a couple good ole buds, if anyone at all, to join. 

The way that ENY changes behind the scenes without any indication of when or how much, (unless you are constantly monitoring country status), many missions have launched only to find that only the goons and a couple of bombers were able to spawn on the runway, the rest receive the ENY jack in the box.  This happens quite often with veteran mission planners and is not what it was intended to do.

Offline Karnak

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Re: Scratch "Across the board" ENY - Make it USEFUL instead
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2011, 07:18:56 AM »
Okay Fugitive,

I have been a bit cranky, so forgive me.  Anything that discourages players to the point they log off, decreases the potential game play options.  Also, I suggest that you post a few missions via mission planner to understand the dilemma better.  Post a mission that does not include a popular plane and good luck finding more than a couple good ole buds, if anyone at all, to join. 

The way that ENY changes behind the scenes without any indication of when or how much, (unless you are constantly monitoring country status), many missions have launched only to find that only the goons and a couple of bombers were able to spawn on the runway, the rest receive the ENY jack in the box.  This happens quite often with veteran mission planners and is not what it was intended to do.
The number of people logging off because ENY frustrates them are less than the number of people logging off because of horrible side imbalances.

If anything, ENY needs to be applied more aggressively.
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Offline coombz

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Re: Scratch "Across the board" ENY - Make it USEFUL instead
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2011, 07:32:26 AM »
Chilli why not just join a squad with some guys who have the same aims as you? i.e., players who will not be put off by high ENY when it's time to hit a base, and will take whatever plane can get the job done.

I have never really understood the whole 'recruit a bunch of randoms from country channel for a mission' thing...sure I guess you get some regulars...but in my opinion all games like this are better with a committed team/group/squad!!
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Scratch "Across the board" ENY - Make it USEFUL instead
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2011, 09:04:59 AM »
Okay Fugitive,

I have been a bit cranky, so forgive me.  Anything that discourages players to the point they log off, decreases the potential game play options.  Also, I suggest that you post a few missions via mission planner to understand the dilemma better.  Post a mission that does not include a popular plane and good luck finding more than a couple good ole buds, if anyone at all, to join. 

The way that ENY changes behind the scenes without any indication of when or how much, (unless you are constantly monitoring country status), many missions have launched only to find that only the goons and a couple of bombers were able to spawn on the runway, the rest receive the ENY jack in the box.  This happens quite often with veteran mission planners and is not what it was intended to do.

This has nothing to do with ENY, but it has everything to do with the type of players we have today.

Todays player only wants the biggest and baddest so that they can roll over bases as quick as possible with the least amount of effort involved. They log because they haven't a clue how to fly the "lesser" planes. They log because they haven't a clue how to create a mission that involves tactics, not just an overwhelming force.

I agree with Karnak, I think more people log off due to the imbalances as well as seeing the same old horde running around the maps.

As for running missions, very few know what they are doing. All most of them know is to launch with as many late war monsters as you can, run NOE across any water they can find and hit a base nobody is at. Personally I love to see far more information be available for mission planners, and I'd like to see them use it.

1) a ready room/ planning room. Mission leader goes in and has 2 maps on the wall. One map is the active world map showing all dar info. Second map is the mission planner map. Planner can lay out waypoints for different wings with short notes on objective for each wing. In a center panel, ENY numbers, base count, population count, and base capture system announcements  updated each minute.

2) ready room text/vox is a separate channel no outside text or vox. everyone that's wants in on the mission has to request entrance and be allowed in. Once mission numbers are met, a message will pop up that" the mission is full, please join another". With a separate text/vox channel assignments would be easier to get out, and everyone would know their objective/assignment before they left the ground....no more playing 20 questions as you fly to the target. 

3) a data display on the kneeboard of the mission leader. As each wings mission is accomplished ....:ie FH down.... a check appears before it on the board so the leader can have up to date info on how the attack is going and better control what he/she needs where.

The problem is half of this stuff can be done now and nobody bothers. Why? Because most don't know how to get/use the info that is available. Next, to many players don't have the patients to do the research, compile the info, and put it together. On top of that, the followers can't be bothered with learning how/what they have to do to accomplish their objectives.

Todays game has become like every FPS out there. Spawn, kill as many as you can, die, REPEAT. We spawn, bomb the town repeatedly dieing often until someone gets enough troops in for the capture, then REPEAT someplace else. Even if we are given the "tools" most won't bother to use them.

Offline Karnak

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Re: Scratch "Across the board" ENY - Make it USEFUL instead
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2011, 10:39:56 AM »
The frustrating thing is that people won't even try the higher ENY aicraft, they just declare them useless.  Pushing the Mosquito VI again, it is very close to a P-51D in capability, both for air-to-air and air-to-ground.  An La-5FN isn't vastly behind an La-7.  A Ki-84 is still a good fighter in a world of Spitfire Mk XVIs.

There are lots of very good, competitive, higher ENY planes, some of which are real gems.
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Offline MAINER

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Re: Scratch "Across the board" ENY - Make it USEFUL instead
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2011, 11:27:04 AM »
The Brits actually never lacked for aircraft during the Battle of Britain, they had lots of brand new Hurricanes and Spitfires just waiting to be used.  They had a severe shortage of pilots.


My comment on the Merlin wasn't just about losing my Mossie.  The Merlin is the most used engine in AH.  If a Merlin factory were in the game that all Merlin engined aircraft depended on, losing the factory would eliminate the following aircraft from use:

Hurricane Mk I
Hurricane Mk IIc
Hurricane Mk IId
Lancaster Mk III
Mosquito Mk VI
Mosquito Mk XVI
P-40F
P-51B
P-51D
Seafire Mk IIc
Spitfire Mk Ia
Spitfire Mk Vb
Spitfire Mk VIII
Spitfire Mk IX
Spitfire Mk XVI

That seems a bit much for a single factory.  Eliminating the P-51s and all Spits other than the perked, unSpitfire like Mk XIV would tick off an awful lot of people.

The American planes like P-40F 51B and D would not be affected.They use Packard Merlins. And yes there was a difference!
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Scratch "Across the board" ENY - Make it USEFUL instead
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2011, 12:26:05 PM »
The American planes like P-40F 51B and D would not be affected.They use Packard Merlins. And yes there was a difference!
The Lancaster Mk III and Spitfire Mk XVI also use Packard Merlins.
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Offline Chilli

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Re: Scratch "Across the board" ENY - Make it USEFUL instead
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2011, 03:53:37 PM »
Chilli why not just join a squad with some guys who have the same aims as you? i.e., players who will not be put off by high ENY when it's time to hit a base, and will take whatever plane can get the job done.

I have never really understood the whole 'recruit a bunch of randoms from country channel for a mission' thing...sure I guess you get some regulars...but in my opinion all games like this are better with a committed team/group/squad!!

I was very happy with all of the squads that I belonged to.  The one thing that had me move away from squads was their insistence on remaining loyal to one country regardless.  I have to admit that at first staying with the same country gave you an opportunity to know your countrymen.  What really sucks about that is that you don't get to know 2/3 of the other players as well.  I have had just as much FUN getting to know the likes of some very skilled and delightfully humurous players across all countries. 

Besides, if I hadn't been allowed to go Knight, I would never have known about Floatsup's "Bowling For Planes" air to air bomb kill missions, or his singing  :o .....  :bolt: