Icon Ranges

[Karnak]

that never seemed to happen in the ava.

 just sayin.

What happened in the AVA is that hugging the deck where you couldn't be see as easily gave an advantage over the people higher up who were easy to see against the sky.  And yes, the chasing a guy you couldn't tell if you were gaining on or if he were pulling away did happen.  You're thinking of ranges that are much shorter than I am.

and you learn to use your gunsight go gauge your distance.

I would like to play around with the idea of not having more than the Rook, Bishop or Knight icon below 1500 or 1000 yards.  It is the shorter ranges where our screens are providing perhaps enough information to not need plane type or distances on the icons.  In the AVA where you don't have Spitfires fighting Spitfire the Rook, Bishop or Knight icons would be removed as well.

[Karnak]

Now days with large monitors becoming very affordable great video hardware and tools like Track ir 5, flying no icon settings are becoming very popular,and have been in many other Sims. Its clearly the wave of the future  

Sadly, this is a misunderstanding on the part of consumers.  All of the "affordable" large monitors are 1080p, high def television, and the same resolution as a 23" 1080p would be, the pixels are just bigger.  There are higher resolution screens available, but they are expensive and need powerful video cards to drive them at the higher resolutions.

[CAP1]

What happened in the AVA is that hugging the deck where you couldn't be see as easily gave an advantage over the people higher up who were easy to see against the sky.  And yes, the chasing a guy you couldn't tell if you were gaining on or if he were pulling away did happen.  You're thinking of ranges that are much shorter than I am.I would like to play around with the idea of not having more than the Rook, Bishop or Knight icon below 1500 or 1000 yards.  It is the shorter ranges where our screens are providing perhaps enough information to not need plane type or distances on the icons.  In the AVA where you don't have Spitfires fighting Spitfire the Rook, Bishop or Knight icons would be removed as well.

 i flew the ava nearly every night for a few months. with no icons. it was always apparent if i was gaining or not on a con. it was always harder to see cons down at tree top level, but the solution to that is to stay above their zoom alt, and look. you don't look for a shape. you look for movement, or something that doesn't look like it belongs. or you fly down at treetop with them. they're super easy to spot at co-alt.

 i never had to chase anyone for a fight in there. i never ran from a fight.(mostly due to the fact that i lost too many very important parts to maintain flight   ) .

 if there were furballs, they were low, hard, and fast. and they gave an adrenaline rush. attacking bombers, trying to set up your passes without them getting guns on you, judging when to shoot, figuring your closure rate.....all gave heart pounding fights.

 i had a fight with rammey. him fw190...i think it was an a5, me pee38g. i had alt advantage, and blew the first pass, then blew my alt advantage. it was a white knuckle fight, and even moreso on rangers twin rivers map. it lasted a couple of minutes. i ended up shooting him down, but the point is that that fight happened due to the fact that a lack of icons allowed me to jump him.

 there was another with a guy in a me109..i forget which one......vs me in a p40e. was a massively fun fight, and i was literally sweating when that fight ended. i lost....but once again....lack of icons made that fight.

 shortening them is all that could or would work in the mains. it would be nice to maybe see them cut in half for everything.

[Karnak]

bolded..........6.00 what?

 aircraft have been used throughout history to spot. they will be within gun range, and sometimes not, but they should be able to see them. personally, i'm happy without the icons, although i know they couldn't work in the main arenas.

I meant at max icon range in the MA.  Not sure what you're getting at here. My lack of caring about GVs when I am at 8,000ft is because I am not dealing with an asymmetrical information setting at 8,000ft, even though it exists.

 

when you're following a con, it generally becomes kind of obvious you're being led to something before you get into guns range............

Sometimes, yes.  He still shouldn't be able to shed an attacker that way.  He should be just as blind to the friendly Whirbelwind as I am.

To be clear, that is the direction I am asking for, not for longer ranged icons for me to see the enemy Whirbelwind.

[Karnak]

How can you tell if you are gaining on or losing ground on a dot made of four pixels?

[Nr_RaVeN]

Nr_RaVeN,

In extreme example, somebody running AH in 640x480 will simply not get the detail somebody running it at 2560x1600 will.  When a plane is made up of ~16 pixels on the higher resolution screen, the lower resolution screen will display it using a single pixel.  With 16 pixels you can get a basic plane shape revealing orientation.  When the smaller screen is up to 4 pixels, the larger one is up to ~60.  I can make a fairly good Spitfire picture with 60 pixels, not so much with 4.

Hmm, I wouldn’t agree with you there..
  Thing is in no icon competitions the guys that are the "spotters" actually turn down their resolution to see the dots/cons from a greater range.. Its actually easer to pick up a bandit with lower res than higher. Once in combat range 1000/ 800 yards even at very low resolution AC type is very easy to identify.

I’m basing this on first hand experience... I was one of those spotters because my rig at that time (7years ago) wasn’t so hot..

I saw everything before anyone, the dots looked bigger and fusy to me at low res..

Once I finally did get a nice rig with 1920x1080 res and a hot vidio card it was actually harder to spot cons they were so sharp and crips they apered smaller and less noticable.. But the up close 1000 800 yards the higher res  fights made for better eye candy, and screen shots but that’s about it .. Personally I’m artsy so I go for the eye candy in spite of the fact Identifying cons took a bit more work, I compensated that by purchasing a track ir..
 I can only speak from personal hands on experience. I’m just sharing that perspective you.. 

[CAP1]

I meant at max icon range in the MA.  Not sure what you're getting at here. My lack of caring about GVs when I am at 8,000ft is because I am not dealing with an asymmetrical information setting at 8,000ft, even though it exists.

 Sometimes, yes.  He still shouldn't be able to shed an attacker that way.  He should be just as blind to the friendly Whirbelwind as I am.

To be clear, that is the direction I am asking for, not for longer ranged icons for me to see the enemy Whirbelwind.

 yea, i do agree that he shouldn't be able to see the wirbel either.....

[CAP1]

How can you tell if you are gaining on or losing ground on a dot made of four pixels?

 it will either begin to get larger, or much smaller, till it's out of sight. also, if there's no relative movement, then it's either coming at you or going away. if it's crossing your flight path, that will be obvious even at 9k distance.

[Karnak]

Hmm, I wouldn’t agree with you there..
  Thing is in no icon competitions the guys that are the "spotters" actually turn down their resolution to see the dots/cons from a greater range.. Its actually easer to pick up a bandit with lower res than higher. Once in combat range 1000/ 800 yards even at very low resolution AC type is very easy to identify.

I agree with that to a degree.  Certainly the larger dots are easier to spot.  It is, however, harder to get information from them, such as closure rate or what their orientation is.  I think that likely played a large role in some of the outcomes that the AVA had, A6M5bs slaughtering P-47s for example.  The short ranges at which information was available makes the boom and zoom attacks of the P-47s harder while the turn and burn of the A6M5s isn't affected very much by the lower resolutions and lack of icons.

I think it is also telling that no icons leads to shenanigans such as lowering one's resolution.  To my mind that is like tankers turning off skins and ground clutter.  It is gaming the game.

[Karnak]

it will either begin to get larger, or much smaller, till it's out of sight. also, if there's no relative movement, then it's either coming at you or going away. if it's crossing your flight path, that will be obvious even at 9k distance.

Eventually, sure.  But, per Nr_RaVeN in the other thread, the "pros" at the no icon stuff lower their resolutions to make the dots at range larger.  There can be extended periods at low res where the dot size doesn't change.


I could also be over emphasizing a few negative experiences.

[Nr_RaVeN]

How can you tell if you are gaining on or losing ground on a dot made of four pixels?

By using your common sense. Its very intuitive .

Sadly, this is a misunderstanding on the part of consumers.  All of the "affordable" large monitors are 1080p, high def television, and the same resolution as a 23" 1080p would be, the pixels are just bigger.  There are higher resolution screens available, but they are expensive and need powerful video cards to drive them at the higher resolutions.

I don't agree with that and again I'm only speaking from first hand experience. Its not my intention to contradict you. I'm just sharing what I know based on what I own and how cheap it was.

I have no problems at all my 42 inch monitor is just fine it works great and it cost me less that a 21 inch lcd did 6 years ago.  I have no problems at all. I didn't need to by an expensive monitor that needs a powerful video card.. I'm doing this right now and it was cheap it works and its made the flight sim experience much more enjoyable..

 There is no denying that large monitors that are fantastic for flying flight Sims are very affordable now days. An affordable 1920 x 1080 is affordable and works great.

[Karnak]

Nr_RaVeN,

Your 42" "monitor" will be 1080p and have a resolution of 1920x1080, slightly lower than my old 23" monitor's 1920x1200.  Sure, the dots are bigger on yours, but it doesn't show any more detail.

This isn't something you can agree or disagree with, it is simply a fact.

[Nr_RaVeN]

Nr_RaVeN,

Your 42" "monitor" will be 1080p and have a resolution of 1920x1080, slightly lower than my old 23" monitor's 1920x1200.  Sure, the dots are bigger on yours, but it doesn't show any more detail.

This isn't something you can agree or disagree with, it is simply a fact.

I understand  My apology's if i did a poor job getting my message across.
 The point I'm trying to make is that the images on my monitor look very very nice I am very happy with the detail. Its amazing especially the way I have my video card set.
 I have very high standards, I'm picky and have a good eye for detail, it more than satisfies me.  Also the experience it provides is more than satisfactory. It was very affordable too.

 If there is one thing that has enhanced my flight Sim experience its my monitor.
 I'm simply saying you can have a fantastic quality images with an affordable 42 inch HDTV.

I would choose a 42+ monitor 60hrz @ 1920 x1080 over a higher res smaller monitor any day, the sim experience is far better in comparison to the almost undesirable difference in resolution quality.

 I have done it both ways, and the 42 is much more enjoyable for me. Add to that a track ir 5 and a good mid range video card and your enjoying flight sims at an affordable new level..

 That's my point, this stuff is getting more affordable every day. Big monitors will continue to increase in quality.. The prices will continue to drop on monitors that are already delivering excellent quality at affordable prices.

When 1920x1080 first came out they cost me $3000. Now a better quality  42" 1920 x1080 60hrz is in the $400-650+ range. I'm on my second 42'er my latest cost $400 and it delivers  better images than my first 42 at much less cost to me. 
That is why I said.
Now days with large monitors becoming very affordable great video hardware and tools like Track ir 5, flying no icon settings are becoming very popular,and have been in many other Sims. Its clearly the wave of the future 
Im just sharing some feedback for those that have not been fortunate enough to try out a larger monitor. They are now affordable and deliver a great sim experience.

[ScottyK]

and you learn to use your gunsight go gauge your distance.

 This is what i was going for, trust your sight and gut feeling on when to shoot instead of a number to gauge your shots.

 Also i was thinking if they did not have the plane type till say 1k-2k out, would less running occur and make people get an ID on the type of plane before engaging?

  I have flown in AvA a couple of times and like the fact that the skins of the aircraft come into play and that u can use them to your advantage. 
 

  I appreciate the comments 

[Nr_RaVeN]

I agree with that to a degree.  Certainly the larger dots are easier to spot.  It is, however, harder to get information from them, such as closure rate or what their orientation is.  I think that likely played a large role in some of the outcomes that the AVA had, A6M5bs slaughtering P-47s for example.  The short ranges at which information was available makes the boom and zoom attacks of the P-47s harder while the turn and burn of the A6M5s isn't affected very much by the lower resolutions and lack of icons.
I think it is also telling that no icons leads to shenanigans such as lowering one's resolution.  To my mind that is like tankers turning off skins and ground clutter.  It is gaming the game.

you were saying lower resolution= harder to see I was simply pointing out that the opposite was true.
Obviously its a far more enjoyable experience to fly with better resolution for the eye candy experience. Al be it a bit more challenging.

With video quality now days folks are not gaming the game, there is no need to. I was referring to 7 years ago and my lower end rig showing the dots better at low res not stating that this is something people do now.

Further, Its not harder to get information from the dots at all. The closer rate their orientation is clearly ascertainable.You just need to learn how to connect the dots so to speak    There are many ways to tell whats going on, many cues that one learns over time. For any a player with limited hours flying no icons its understandable that a person would have issues determining closer etc.  It is a bit more changeling at first, I agree

I said the same things  myself, I had no clue at first ..SA OVERLOAD.. ..

 After I got used to it it became very obvious, almost automatic.... I still stink as a fighter pilot, but at least I know whats going on around me..

Its a mater of spending enough time at it to better understand it. Identifying a friend or foe, orientation, closer rate and so on is a developed skill needed for the no or short icon settings.

 It takes a commitment to develop a new set of skills that many are just not willing to make.

 Its easy to just try it a few times, get slaughtered and give up. Quitting and forming a negative opinion before any thing was really learned. Its not for everybody, but if a player has the determination to stick to it and not ring the bell it becomes something very enjoyable and delivers a white knuckle thrill.