A tale of two spins

[MachFly]

I too wasn't able to recover from a right-hand spin, but had no trouble with a left-hand spin.

Here's what Lockheed had to say.

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Thanks for posting this.

[MK-84]

The instructions on how to avoid a spin with the cartoonish stuff.  When was that made, and by whom?  I read the entire thing, I have yet to try it in AH, but I cant imagine that was a training manual, or was it?

[ozrocker]

Not really weird, while sitting in the hanger in a P38, start just the right engine.  Shift + 2 and press E.  Now add power to #2, while looking forward, the nose of the aircraft swings to the left.

Doh, I forgot counter-rotating


                                                                                                                                      Oz

[MK-84]

Doh, I forgot counter-rotating


                                                                                                                                      Oz

No that still seems wierd...That would mean the torque initially is greatter than the thrust from the prop? Is that possible?

[Ack-Ack]

The instructions on how to avoid a spin with the cartoonish stuff.  When was that made, and by whom?  I read the entire thing, I have yet to try it in AH, but I cant imagine that was a training manual, or was it?

It was put out by Lockheed during the war and intended for training purposes.

ack-ack

[MK-84]

It was put out by Lockheed during the war and intended for training purposes.

ack-ack

   Thats official from Lockheed?

[TequilaChaser]

My guess would be that you were not in a Stall/spin but rather had entered a steep sprial which many people confuse with a spin.  The wing is never really stalled.  Vipers stall to the right file, his first attempt was a steep sprial .

I would think that ack-ack would be near the top of the list when it comes to the P-38 series in several different flight sims........ and would know how to encroach or produce a " Stall Induced Spin".........

if a person simply stalls the plane out without any rudder input, the only thing to happen would be the nose dropping straight down ( remember counter rotating props equal out prop wash & torque )...... thus, one needs to apply the rudder to induce the spin with the full back pressure  or elevator full up position / rudder full either direction desired ....... I would not even question the ability whether ack-ack was initiating a power-off stall correctly an inducing the spin properly or not....... I am sure he hit a hvy buffeting before he introduced right rudder and full elevator up / full stick back........

the same with Viper........ all 3 of his purposely stall induced spins are pretty much identical in their timing and in their recovery........ some he does claim to let spin more than others but his film shows no signs of using "right engine throttle" to recover from any of the spins.... he does use the throttle to increase speed once he had recovered the spin enough to use both throttles to get speed to pull out.....

edit: if you are hitting the rudder "post stall" after the nose has started to drop then you are not inducing the spin, you have already stalled and are approaching a nose down atitude without any input

you are stalled once you have reached beyond a medium buffet / full volume stall horn.......... at this point you are post stall or on the other side of the stall edge..... if you are waiting for the wing(s) ( since this is a P-38L and it is balanced ) to lose lift and drop then you use rudder....... this is more of entering a spiral dive because you are waiting to long to induce the spin.......  

from my experiences anyways

Stall induced spin? LOL.
All spins occur as a result of an aggrivated stall where one wing is stalled more then other.

Yes, it is a Stall Induced Spin........  to get the plane to spin one has to induce the stall and then use cross control, as has been mentioned by several others in this thread already....

the cross controls are the left ( or right ) full rudder and full back (elevator up ) on flight stick or yoke.....

hope this helps

TC

[Badboy]

I understand that you can use power on the right engine to stop the spin to the right, however, my point is that you should not have to.

I'm not sure why you thought I used the engine to stop the spin, I didn't, but I wasn't explicit... my apologies.
   
Take another look at my post and see if my suggestion regarding control authority helps. I'm seeing a response to control commands that you aren't so I think that is worth a try. Remember that while we all have exactly the same flight model, the thing that will vary from player to player is the way the controls are set up and applied and so a corresponding variation in response isn't surprising.

I would think that AH might want to look at the model.

We all have exactly the same model, but in contrast to your experience I find it fairly difficult to spin the P-38L and I find it easy to recover. I'm seeing results that appear to be entirely consistent with the manual. That there seems to be some variety in results even though we all have exactly the same model is an indication that the cause may be found elsewhere. That's why I suspect that control issues may be a more likely candidate for the different behaviour we are seeing than the model itself.

Hope that helps...

Badboy

[Traveler]

I would think that ack-ack would be near the top of the list when it comes to the P-38 series in several different flight sims........ and would know how to encroach or produce a " Stall Induced Spin".........

if a person simply stalls the plane out without any rudder input, the only thing to happen would be the nose dropping straight down ( remember counter rotating props equal out prop wash & torque )...... thus, one needs to apply the rudder to induce the spin with the full back pressure  or elevator full up position / rudder full either direction desired ....... I would not even question the ability whether ack-ack was initiating a power-off stall correctly an inducing the spin properly or not....... I am sure he hit a hvy buffeting before he introduced right rudder and full elevator up / full stick back........

the same with Viper........ all 3 of his purposely stall induced spins are pretty much identical in their timing and in their recovery........ some he does claim to let spin more than others but his film shows no signs of using "right engine throttle" to recover from any of the spins.... he does use the throttle to increase speed once he had recovered the spin enough to use both throttles to get speed to pull out.....

edit: if you are hitting the rudder "post stall" after the nose has started to drop then you are not inducing the spin, you have already stalled and are approaching a nose down atitude without any input

you are stalled once you have reached beyond a medium buffet / full volume stall horn.......... at this point you are post stall or on the other side of the stall edge..... if you are waiting for the wing(s) ( since this is a P-38L and it is balanced ) to lose lift and drop then you use rudder....... this is more of entering a spiral dive because you are waiting to long to induce the spin.......  

from my experiences anyways

Yes, it is a Stall Induced Spin........  to get the plane to spin one has to induce the stall and then use cross control, as has been mentioned by several others in this thread already....

the cross controls are the left ( or right ) full rudder and full back (elevator up ) on flight stick or yoke.....

hope this helps

TC

Have you looked at my film?  I also disagree that waiting for the nose to start to drop prior to applying Rudder to induce the spin is wrong..   In a stall not all three control surfaces lose there effectiveness at the same point. In a stall the Rudder is the  last surface to lose effectiveness and the first to recover effectiveness.   Your assumptions that in a perfect world when a stall is done wings level with feet on the floor (no rudder input) the nose would drop with no induced roll is just unrealistic.  A student must work the rudder constantly to achieve that type of perfect stall.

You may want to actually go fly at your local airport with an instructor clime to 5 K in a trainer and do your feet on the floor stall and record how many time in 3 a wing drops off at stall (rolls).

Look bottom line is, from everything I read including Stall Spin recovery training material from Lockheed , you should not have to apply power to stop the spin.   You should just be holding rudder on the opposite side of the spin to stop the spin.  I found and many others have found that you can’t do that in AH in a spin to the right in a P38L.

[TequilaChaser]

Your assumptions that in a perfect world when a stall is done wings level with feet on the floor (no rudder input) the nose would drop with no induced roll is just unrealistic.  A student must work the rudder constantly to achieve that type of perfect stall.

It is a perfect world in Aces High when it comes to the P38 series.......... at least that is what people sort of acknowledge

counter rotating props......  no yaw to deal with........  no wind to deal with.......   is like flying in a vacuum.....  <-- not really Aces high does model atmospheric air density, but there is no wind or cross winds or updrafts etc....

I should have posted I was specifically talking about "Aces High & the Aces high P38 series" ......

do you think they have a P38L trainer at any local airport for me to go and take a flying lesson with an instructor?  to see how the P38L ( twin engine with counter rotating props ) trainer plane would react if I did a power off stall?   If I was to do a gradual climb with no rudder input at all to where the plane stalled and the nose dropped........... are you telling me that it would roll off to one side or the other? if the plane was in a perfect level climb and trimmed properly ?    I am no flight instructor, sorry...  but I am not talking real world here either, Traveler

hell, I am always up for learning something new in Aces high, if I am wrong about something or have posted wrong information regarding Aces high, I openly accept someone correcting me, sir.....


edit: yes sir, Traveler..... I did go and download your films and I watched them around 3 or 4 times  

TC

[Baumer]

Traveler, I didn't see this in your initial post, but did you do the testing with combat trim on by any chance?

[TequilaChaser]

Look bottom line is, from everything I read including Stall Spin recovery training material from Lockheed , you should not have to apply power to stop the spin.   You should just be holding rudder on the opposite side of the spin to stop the spin.  I found and many others have found that you can’t do that in AH in a spin to the right in a P38L.

Traveler, I understand that for you and for others as well........ that when ya'll are doing this test for spin recovery on the P38 L............. that some of you DO have to use the throttle on the right engine to bring the P38 out of the right handed spin.......

I also know that myself, and others............. are able to recover from this Stall right rudder induced spin without having to use any throttle on the right engine.........

I believe that the difference is all in the way each person has their controls setup or scaled / dampened, or what have you.........

I know you are a Life long Flight Instrutor, and are very knowledgable in this area, I am not trying to argue against you.......

cheers

TC

[Traveler]

Traveler, I didn't see this in your initial post, but did you do the testing with combat trim on by any chance?

I did it the test with combat trim both on and off I saw no difference in the spin to the right.  And I was always able to recover from the spin to the left.

[Traveler]

Traveler, I understand that for you and for others as well........ that when ya'll are doing this test for spin recovery on the P38 L............. that some of you DO have to use the throttle on the right engine to bring the P38 out of the right handed spin.......

I also know that myself, and others............. are able to recover from this Stall right rudder induced spin without having to use any throttle on the right engine.........

I believe that the difference is all in the way each person has their controls setup or scaled / dampened, or what have you.........

I know you are a Life long Flight Instrutor, and are very knowledgable in this area, I am not trying to argue against you.......

cheers

TC

I agree with you that it might have been my control settings, I use the default on everything.  I suggested that a long ways back in this thread.

This is my set up.

Feet on the floor



Left rudder


Right Rudder

[Traveler]

One thing I notice when I watch your film is that your control commands appear to have no visible effect on the aircraft at all. In contrast to that, when my aircraft is in a spin I see distinct visual cues in response to my control commands. This leads me to think that it might be worth checking your joystick set up, just in case it is a control authority issue.

You are looking at a .ahf file, it does not show the actual control inputs.  as far as I know.  It only shows some control inputs. as a test I turned on fraps at the same time I hit alt + R, moved the controls and exited.  The fraps film shows all control movements while the .ahf file shows none.