A tale of two spins

[icepac]

Do the trim states change when you spin?

I've gotten a half turn and recovered to find the trim was crazily skewed and definately different than it was before the spin.

combat trim and stall limiter are off.

[Ack-Ack]

Do the trim states change when you spin?

I've gotten a half turn and recovered to find the trim was crazily skewed and definately different than it was before the spin.

combat trim and stall limiter are off.

If you are using manual trim it should not get out of whack by the spin but with combat trim it can get that way.

ack-ack

[colmbo]

And just to keep things clear.   

Was playing around with more spins in the 38L.

I can hold pro-spin control (stick back and rudder in direction of spin) and then by just putting in aileron pro-spin (spin to left, left aileron) the rotation will stop -- a little forward stick to break the stall and you're flying again.

[Traveler]

Traveler: I have had trouble deciphering this thread I believe everyone except you say they can recover normally. And by rudder alone do you mean rudder and no elevator? Was the spin entry the same both ways?

So I'm confused what the issue is, have you tried the same procedure I.E. start spin left, and then reverse to the right. Along with start spin right and then reverse to the left?

As I have said above, there should be no difference left and right. I just don't want to go on a wild goose chase before you have tested all conditions.

HiTech

What I am saying is that if I enter a normal  stall /spin to the left, I can recovery by just releasing back pressure and holding opposite rudder , in this case right rudder , the spin is the rotation stops and the stall is recovered normally.

When I enter a spin to the right , holding opposite rudder, in this case full left rudder, does not stop the spin.

I performed both power on and power off stall and applied rudder to spin the aircraft.  I also used different aircraft load outs.  The result is the same.  The P38L once in a spin to the right was not able to recover.   Could not stop the spin to the right by using full left rudder.  Was only able to recover by applying power on the right engine.

I do believe that I was not the only one that noticed this.

Have you tried it?

[BoilerDown]

You might try downloading Fraps and using it to record your procedures live (i.e. not frapsing the film).  That way people can see your stick inputs.  Of course record and upload the actual .ahf files as well.  And show yourself calibrating the joystick and rudder while you're at it.  The more doubt you can remove about what you're doing and what you're using, the better.

[Mar]

And just to keep things clear.   

Was playing around with more spins in the 38L.

I can hold pro-spin control (stick back and rudder in direction of spin) and then by just putting in aileron pro-spin (spin to left, left aileron) the rotation will stop -- a little forward stick to break the stall and you're flying again.

This explains why I cannot do a snap-roll in the L if I use aileron.

My entry into the spin is fine, there is no other spin that will keep going when I let go of the controls. Without using engines, aileron into the spin or getting the nose bouncing are the only ways to recover. The J however cannot recover with aileron alone, a little nose bouncing is required with aileron. Rudder seems to have no effect ruddering with the spin, and it seems to make the spin a bit faster ruddering against the spin.

Glad to hear the elevator graphic issue in the spin was discovered, that one always had me wondering.

[MK-84]

I tried twice each time.

25% fuel no loadout, max ammo 10k alt

Flew level, power off, intentionally kept the plane level while applying full left rudder.  I enterend a counterclockwise spin, I wne through one full rotation each time (which put my nose almost straight down.  After applying full opposite rudder each time I was unable to correct after 2 full rotations, by applyin full throttle and less rudder I recovered, losing about 6k in alt

Again exactly the same but with full right rudder to enter the spin I was unable to recover both times.

But probably this was me though, more testing to come.

[Buckaroo]

I'm a professional flight instructor that has many years of experience.  I've taught spin recovery in real life in both military  and civilian flight instruction.  Powered and glider.  Unlike the FAA, I’m a strong believer that all primary students should learn spin recovery and be able to demonstrate it.  I’ have taught it for the last 30  years as part of the student pilot curriculum . 

Student glider pilots according to the FAA curriculum for a glider rating  must demonstrate spins and spin recovery , however, student pilots for powered aircraft must only demonstrate knowledge of spin recovery.

Perhaps that explains why far more powered students die in stall spin accidents then glider students.

Something else that you can also do in AH is to stall the aircraft press left ruder and the aircraft spins to the left, while keeping the stick fully back (stalled) stop the spin to the left by holding right ruder, and continue to hold right ruder so the spin starts to the right, at this point now apply left ruder and attempt to stop the spin to the right.   It can’t be done.  At least it can’t be done in the P38.

I have found the different planes in AH have their unique spin characteristics and some don't even spin.

I have flat spun the La-7 several times usually being too slow, and good luck with that, recovering from it.  And yet, I can do a succesful bail if I am high enough.

The P-39 had a history of flat spins in real life, with the engine behind the seat, yet I have not encountered it, and I have deliberately tried to force it.

[hitech]

What I am saying is that if I enter a normal  stall /spin to the left, I can recovery by just releasing back pressure and holding opposite rudder , in this case right rudder , the spin is the rotation stops and the stall is recovered normally.

When I enter a spin to the right , holding opposite rudder, in this case full left rudder, does not stop the spin.

I performed both power on and power off stall and applied rudder to spin the aircraft.  I also used different aircraft load outs.  The result is the same.  The P38L once in a spin to the right was not able to recover.   Could not stop the spin to the right by using full left rudder.  Was only able to recover by applying power on the right engine.

I do believe that I was not the only one that noticed this.

Have you tried it?

I had no trouble in the p38l recovering left or right. With and with out power. I was doing power on stalls noes about 45 deg , full back until stall, then apply rudder until spin was fully developed. No ordinance 50% gas, 5000 ft entry.

Recover either power on or off was forward stick with opposite rudder. With power off, I had to apply aileron with spin.

HiTech

[Traveler]

I had no trouble in the p38l recovering left or right. With and with out power. I was doing power on stalls noes about 45 deg , full back until stall, then apply rudder until spin was fully developed. No ordinance 50% gas, 5000 ft entry.

Recover either power on or off was forward stick with opposite rudder. With power off, I had to apply aileron with spin.

HiTech

With power off you had to apply aileron?  Consider this please.  With the wing stalled, there shouldn't be any aileron authority.  Other wise you could just use the aileron to keep the wing from dropping in the original stall.    A spin is around the vertical axes (rudder control), not the horizontal axes(aileron control).  The rudder controls the vertical axes not the aileron.  I'm suggesting that when you do the  power on stall.  The prop blast is providing additional authority with airflow over the rudder , enough to all is allowed it the authority to stop the rotation in the spin to the right.

If you are telling me that you are able to perform a complete right spin recovery, power off,  by applying full left rudder ,  with no additional control inputs, I can’t do that.   If you review the Lockheed document on stall spin  the spin recovery is through the user of Rudder , not aileron input. 

As I stated, spins to the left are all recoverable, power off and just using the right rudder to stop rotation.  But with spins to the right some additional authority is needed to stop the rotation. With power or aileron.  I think that’s the issue.  Recovery at least according to Lockheed should be the same in either direction.

[TequilaChaser]

With power off you had to apply aileron?  Consider this please.  With the wing stalled, there shouldn't be any aileron authority.  Other wise you could just use the aileron to keep the wing from dropping in the original stall.    A spin is around the vertical axes (rudder control), not the horizontal axes(aileron control).  The rudder controls the vertical axes not the aileron.  I'm suggesting that when you do the  power on stall.  The prop blast is providing additional authority with airflow over the rudder , enough to all is allowed it the authority to stop the rotation in the spin to the right.

If you are telling me that you are able to perform a complete right spin recovery, power off,  by applying full left rudder ,  with no additional control inputs, I can’t do that.   If you review the Lockheed document on stall spin  the spin recovery is through the user of Rudder , not aileron input. 

Traveler, are you saying you only use opposite rudder and nothing else to try and recover from spins? or that Lockheed's P38 document says to only use opposite rudder and no other control inputs......... like Stick Forward?

do you not use "Stick Forward" ( Elevator Down ) during your spin recovery?   I am not talking about aileron input , just elevator input with Stick Forward.....   likeI posted earlier, where I use the S. T. O. P.  spin recovery when I try to recover from spins.......

this has been an interesting thread.....


TC

[colmbo]

With power off you had to apply aileron?  Consider this please.  With the wing stalled, there shouldn't be any aileron authority.  Other wise you could just use the aileron to keep the wing from dropping in the original stall. 

Aileron into the spin helps to stop the yaw --- adverse aileron yaw.

Anyone who's done stalls in older aircraft knows that using aileron to pick up a wing at the stall will give you a great view of the ground out of the top of the windscreen as you enter the spin.  Is impressive in a B-17.   

[hitech]

As I stated, spins to the left are all recoverable, power off and just using the right rudder to stop rotation.  But with spins to the right some additional authority is needed to stop the rotation. With power or aileron.  I think that’s the issue.  Recovery at least according to Lockheed should be the same in either direction.

Traveler: I am not trying to match the Lockeed manual.

Traveler : If spin recovery is different left or right, as I have stated early in this thread, it is an issue, the question is why. I have not seen anyone clearly state other than you, that they have different recover left vs right.

In my testing I can find no difference in recovery left or right.

Therefore it leads me to believe something is different on your system.

HiTech

[Traveler]

Traveler, are you saying you only use opposite rudder and nothing else to try and recover from spins? or that Lockheed's P38 document says to only use opposite rudder and no other control inputs......... like Stick Forward?

do you not use "Stick Forward" ( Elevator Down ) during your spin recovery?   I am not talking about aileron input , just elevator input with Stick Forward.....   likeI posted earlier, where I use the S. T. O. P.  spin recovery when I try to recover from spins.......

this has been an interesting thread.....


TC

Sorry if I was unclear.   STOP for full stall spin recovery.  However, it’s not just a spin recovery, its two different conditions .  The stall and the spin.   You can’t be in a spin without being in a stall but you can stall without being in a spin.  Recovery from a spin is to apply opposite  rudder until rotation is stopped then neutral rudder or center the ball.  Stall recovery is to release back pressure by moving the stick forward of neutral with neutral aileron.  Depending on the type of stall, some manufactories require full stick forward in a snapping motion.  Lockheed recommendation is release back pressure.

I too feel this is an interesting discussion.   I also feel that if the problem that I am having along with a few other’s was due to technique that none of us would be able to recover from the stall/spin to the left as well, however, that does not appear to be the case.  It’s just with the spin to the right where a issue exists. And we can recover from that by applying power and /or aileron.  That just should not be.

[hitech]

With power off you had to apply aileron?  Consider this please.  With the wing stalled, there shouldn't be any aileron authority. 

Ailerons absolutely have authority, they just work against you. But when using  ailerons you are increasing or decreasing a wings camber. This has the effect of changing the MAX AOA of the wing section containing the aileron. And hence why many planes snap when trying to correct with ailaron. They stall the outer wing section.

But using aileron  in the direction of the spin can hookup a section of the wing again when very close to the spin being stopped.

Other wise you could just use the aileron to keep the wing from dropping in the original stall.   

What happens when you try to do this? Normally it makes for a very nice snap. It's even more fun doing it for real when in an inverted stall.

A spin is around the vertical axes (rudder control), not the horizontal axes(aileron control).  The rudder controls the vertical axes not the aileron. 

Not true, a spin is around both axis, the pitch angle determines how much is yaw, how much is roll. Or more precisely.

The difference in lift between wings creates a roll, the difference in drag of the wings creates the yaw. The ratio of these will determine the nose up attitude.

I'm suggesting that when you do the  power on stall.  The prop blast is providing additional authority with airflow over the rudder , enough to all is allowed it the authority to stop the rotation in the spin to the right.

I agree.

HiTech