P-38 & The Yoke

[clerick]

What about the other aircraft that can carry a lot of fuel? The aircraft I mentioned above (Besides the Typhoon & Tempest) can also carry a large amount of fuel. I don't have the exact numbers for them (yet) but I really can't imagine them having a more than 30% difference.

12,800 empty versus 17,800. Nearly 40%. Max weight is 21,600. Almost 3x the 109 more than double the 190 and almost 2x the 51.

[MachFly]

12,800 empty versus 17,800. Nearly 40%. Max weight is 21,600. Almost 3x the 109 more than double the 190 and almost 2x the 51.

109 is very small, that's like comparing to a Piper Cub. Let's compare it to something with about the same mass that had a stick, say a P-47?

I'll just take the numbers from wikipedia for this because I don't know where else to get them without doing a lot of research. If anyone knows a good source from the top of their head please confirm this.  

P-38 max takeoff weight: 21,600lb
P-47 max takeoff weight: 17,500lb

So that's a 4,100lb difference. I admit that is significant but it's not enough to give it a yoke instead of a stick.
Also keep in mind that you wont be normally taking off with everything you can carry on board and if you will you wont be planning on maneuvering right after take off.

[Ack-Ack]

Would you happen to remember what kind of yoke you used?
I think because there are a lot of different kinds of sticks and yokes you can connect to your computer the comfort would depend more on how much you paid for the specific control unit rather than it's type. For example a $200 yoke can feel a lot more comfortable than a $20 stick.

CH Virtual Pilot Pro was the yoke I was using and my stick at the time was a CH Jane's F-16 Combat Stick.

ack-ack

[Scherf]

Why is that?

IIRC he felt it was less physically demanding and more responsive.

[Widewing]

109 is very small, that's like comparing to a Piper Cub. Let's compare it to something with about the same mass that had a stick, say a P-47?

I'll just take the numbers from wikipedia for this because I don't know where else to get them without doing a lot of research. If anyone knows a good source from the top of their head please confirm this.  

P-38 max takeoff weight: 21,600lb
P-47 max takeoff weight: 17,500lb

So that's a 4,100lb difference. I admit that is significant but it's not enough to give it a yoke instead of a stick.
Also keep in mind that you wont be normally taking off with everything you can carry on board and if you will you wont be planning on maneuvering right after take off.

The vast bulk of the P-38's weight was outside the width of the fuselage. You had 52 feet of wing with those heavy Allisons hanging out there. Lockheed determined that joy stick forces would be excessively high and decided to provide a yoke with pulleys and cables to gain a large mechanical advantage. Control forces were reduced by more than 50% over a conventional stick. The P-38J-25 and P-38L models had boosted ailerons, which reduced control force by as much as 85%.

[MachFly]

The vast bulk of the P-38's weight was outside the width of the fuselage. You had 52 feet of wing with those heavy Allisons hanging out there. Lockheed determined that joy stick forces would be excessively high and decided to provide a yoke with pulleys and cables to gain a large mechanical advantage. Control forces were reduced by more than 50% over a conventional stick. The P-38J-25 and P-38L models had boosted ailerons, which reduced control force by as much as 85%.

50% just by adding extra pulleys? WOW
I'd be really interested to see the diagram of how it was all connected.

Any idea why after the hydraulics for the ailerons were installed they didn't change it back to the stick?

[MachFly]

IIRC he felt it was less physically demanding and more responsive.

In that case it probably depended a lot more on airplane and not the controls.
I've flown 5 different aircraft with a yoke and 6 different aircraft with a stick. I found the stick to be a lot more precise and a lot easier to use when maneuvering. 

[MachFly]

CH Virtual Pilot Pro was the yoke I was using and my stick at the time was a CH Jane's F-16 Combat Stick.

ack-ack

I think in that case it more depended on the specific product rather than the type of controls.

Just out of curiosity what didn't you like about the CH stick?

[Ack-Ack]

I think in that case it more depended on the specific product rather than the type of controls.

Just out of curiosity what didn't you like about the CH stick?

It wasn't that I didn't like the stick, it was a great stick that I had custom made when I was still at CH.  I wanted to see how well a yoke would work and it worked far better than I thought it would have.  Like I mentioned, the only issues were using the Pro Throttle along with the yoke, didn't make for a good ergonomic fit.

ack-ack

[MachFly]

It wasn't that I didn't like the stick, it was a great stick that I had custom made when I was still at CH.  I wanted to see how well a yoke would work and it worked far better than I thought it would have.  Like I mentioned, the only issues were using the Pro Throttle along with the yoke, didn't make for a good ergonomic fit.

ack-ack

Ah Roger

[Widewing]

50% just by adding extra pulleys? WOW
I'd be really interested to see the diagram of how it was all connected.

Any idea why after the hydraulics for the ailerons were installed they didn't change it back to the stick?

Sure... The system could fail, and then you would be back to the old P-38 configuration, but with excessive stick forces. A second reason is that if you suffered an engine failure, the single engine landing procedure was to shut off the aileron boost to maintain enough hydraulic pressure to lower the landing gear. If it were fitted with a stick, you would have a dangerous situation with high stick forces and having to battle a critical engine condition.

[MachFly]

Sure... The system could fail, and then you would be back to the old P-38 configuration, but with excessive stick forces. A second reason is that if you suffered an engine failure, the single engine landing procedure was to shut off the aileron boost to maintain enough hydraulic pressure to lower the landing gear. If it were fitted with a stick, you would have a dangerous situation with high stick forces and having to battle a critical engine condition.

I guess I can understand that the stick forces can be uncomfortable but I have thought time believing that it be actually hard to fly. Now I'm not familiar with it's hydraulics system but the gear does not take that long to drop, perhaps after the gear drops you can turn the aileron boost back on.
Also you can drop the gear using the emergency procedures by pumping the hydraulic fluid yourself or opening the gear mechanically without hydraulics at all. This process takes about 5 minutes but you don't loose the hydraulic pressure in the ailerons.  

[clerick]

I guess I can understand that the stick forces can be uncomfortable but I have thought time believing that it be actually hard to fly. Now I'm not familiar with it's hydraulics system but the gear does not take that long to drop, perhaps after the gear drops you can turn the aileron boost back on.
Also you can drop the gear using the emergency procedures by pumping the hydraulic fluid yourself or opening the gear mechanically without hydraulics at all. This process takes about 5 minutes but you don't loose the hydraulic pressure in the ailerons.  

I have watched the Lockheed training videos on how to handle a single engine emergency landing and I'd have to say that they have enough going on their hands without having to worry about pumping for 5 mins. Just seems easier to shut off a system that isn't necessary and carry on then to add, as you say, five minutes of work to an already busy pilot.

[PAKFRONT]

All the Control Yokes I've seen look like a Cessna Yoke.. I think a realistic WW2 combat yoke for P38 or A20 would be a hot ticket! I'd buy one for sure!

[B4Buster]

I like Saitek's Cessna logo setup they have. Now, if they'd just do something similar for Beechcraft controls...