Radio Operator's Gun on B-17

[Ack-Ack]

They probably got rid of one of the waist gunners.  The radio man would be on radios until it got hot, then would run to the waist gun.  Once everything was clear, he'd switch back to the radios.

I'm not so sure they always removed a crewman, I think it might have been up to individual bomber crews or squadrons/groups.  

Just finished reading the war time memoirs of a radio man (George Webster; "The Savage Sky - Life and Death on a Bomber over Germany in 1944") on a B-17F and B-17G and he never mentioned losing a crew member when they got rid of the radio gun on the B-17F and kept their full compliment when they finally received their B-17G.  Besides his main job of manning the radio, his other duties included taking pictures, keeping a log, ensuring the bomb bay doors opened, making sure the bombs dropped, shuttling ammo around when the shooting started and acting as a medic if anyone got wounded.

ack-ack

[Guppy35]

I'm not so sure they always removed a crewman, I think it might have been up to individual bomber crews or squadrons/groups.  

Just finished reading the war time memoirs of a radio man (George Webster; "The Savage Sky - Life and Death on a Bomber over Germany in 1944") on a B-17F and B-17G and he never mentioned losing a crew member when they got rid of the radio gun on the B-17F and kept their full compliment when they finally received their B-17G.  Besides his main job of manning the radio, his other duties included taking pictures, keeping a log, ensuring the bomb bay doors opened, making sure the bombs dropped, shuttling ammo around when the shooting started and acting as a medic if anyone got wounded.

ack-ack

It was late in the game when it was a 9 man crew.  There were certainly 10 man crews into 45 in the 15th AF.  But it got to be pretty standard in the 8th towards the end. 

[JohnnyHeelz]

I'm not an expert but I would think that the 9 man crew was relevant to refurb'd 17's that incorporated a few remote control turrets?  (ie. B29 technology, 1945 +) Hence the need for one less. 

At the end of the day, the radio op was still the radio op, just without the gun.

[W7LPNRICK]

Most crews removed the gun.

ack-ack

Why?

[Guppy35]

I'm not an expert but I would think that the 9 man crew was relevant to refurb'd 17's that incorporated a few remote control turrets?  (ie. B29 technology, 1945 +) Hence the need for one less. 

At the end of the day, the radio op was still the radio op, just without the gun.

There were no B17s that used remote control turrets like the B-29.

It came down to any number of things, including numbers, cost, usefulness etc.  If the job can be done with 9, why would you risk 10?  And while it was a 'good war', it still cost money.  You cut costs where you can.

[Raptor05121]

so why dont we add it for the sake of giving us BUFFERS another gun?

[Guppy35]

so why dont we add it for the sake of giving us BUFFERS another gun?

Maybe cause those lazers on the 17s are plenty good already?

[Selino631]

really? the B-17 is already pretty good, it doesn't need the additional m2

[EskimoJoe]

so why dont we add it for the sake of giving us BUFFERS another gun?

Why? The simple fact that 999000 would become 1000000.

[Ack-Ack]

Why?

It was basically useless.

ack-ack

[Raptor05121]

really? the B-17 is already pretty good, it doesn't need the additional m2

yes huh

[Guppy35]

To go back to the 9 man crew bit.  I found an interesting comment in a book by a B17 Ball Turret gunner with the 457th BG called "Dead Engine Kids".  It's his diary written at the time.  They got to England in mid summer 44 having trained as a 10 man crew, and were switched to a nine man crew before they went into combat at the end of August 44.

Quoting a couple entries

"We're losing Galloway and Ward.  Because of their "Mickey" training they're going to Alconbury and be sent to fly with Group lead crews.  We'll have Ted Braffmen, a navigator trained to use a G-Box.  Ozenburger moves from the waist to nose where he'll operate the chin turret and  drop the bombs when he is told.  Braffmen will navigate with the G-Box and Dead Reckoning.  Most navigation is done by the group leader.  Braffmen will try to keep track of where we are just in case"

"We lost our bombardier and navigator to a radar squadron so one of the enlisted men has to toggalier.  He's the one who will toggle out the bombs instead of the bombardier when we're over the target.  We're flying nine man crews now.  The toggalier doesn't have to know how to use the bomb sight because all the ships toggle their bombs when the lead ship does.  The lead bombardier does the calculating for the entire group or squadron"

[AirLynx]

OK, what about the option of 12 or 13 guns?

One option has the staggered waist guns and 12 guns, and the other has 13 guns?

[SectorNine50]

OK, what about the option of 12 or 13 guns?

One option has the staggered waist guns and 12 guns, and the other has 13 guns?

But then we come to the question of; why?

Wouldn't you rather resources be spent on creating new planes and updating old ones rather than taking the time throwing an arbitrary 13th gun on an existing bomber that already has 12 guns and can defend it's self very well as-is?

EDIT:
I guess I just see it as somewhat trivial for the amount of time it would probably take to implement it.  But as per usual, that's completely up to Hitech & Company.

[TheMercinary60]

But then we come to the question of; why?

Wouldn't you rather resources be spent on creating new planes and updating old ones rather than taking the time throwing an arbitrary 13th gun on an existing bomber that already has 12 guns and can defend it's self very well as-is?

EDIT:
I guess I just see it as somewhat trivial for the amount of time it would probably take to implement it.  But as per usual, that's completely up to Hitech & Company.

i also think it would be nice to have the option, when i first started playing back when i was what most would call a squeaker i was rather confused by the lack of that 13th gun, now ive grown to be accustomed to it but i still say give us the option, if we want to be that much heavier and easier to hit let us. not saying im demanding it right away but sometime in the future it would be nice