Corner Speed Chart

[Darkdiz]

Any way we can get a chart (similar to climb or speed chart) that gives the maximum SUSTAINED turn radius vs speed (aka Corner Speed)?  Would be useful in determining in flight your best speed to maintain if a turn fight is what you are in.  I'm pretty sure it is modelled somewhere.

Thanks

Darkdiz

[MK-84]

That will not help you maintain an optimal speed. 
You can not sustain an optimal corner speed.

As for sustained turn radius, here:
http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/
I think this is what you are looking for.

In which case...

Boing!! Wish granted

[Darkdiz]

Actually, corner speed is loosely defined as that speed which you can SUSTAIN during the smallest radius turn.  In a real aircraft, it can be expressed as a function of G load, but here, if say you are flying a spit, there will be a certain speed at which you can sustain a turn, and maintain that speed for the smallest radius.  By definition, it is sustainable.

After takling to a few of the aerodynamic types at work, we guessed somewhere around 270 for a Spit

The site you gave me is simply awesome, lots of info, but no corner speed chart.
Thanks for taking the time to respond

DD

[MachFly]

+1

[RTHolmes]

Actually, corner speed is loosely defined as that speed which you can SUSTAIN during the smallest radius turn.

I dont think thats right, as I understand it sustained minimum turn radius is at stall speed*. corner speed is where you get maximum instantanious turn rate and is G-limited by either the aircraft or the pilot. for fighters, its limited by the pilot.



edit: * "just above stall speed"

[FLS]

Your best sustained turn speed is neither the smallest radius or at stall speed. The smallest radius and fastest turn rate is at corner speed but in WW2 fighters you cannot maintain corner speed unless you're descending sufficiently.

Best sustained turn speed is the combination of G load and speed where your turn rate is highest while thrust and drag are balanced in a flat turn. You can fly slower than your best sustained turn speed but you will turn slower if you do.

[RTHolmes]

surely the only way you can sustain max turn rate is by keeping the aircraft at corner speed by descending, so the E you burn by turning is matched by the E you get from converting alt to E?

[FLS]

surely the only way you can sustain max turn rate is by keeping the aircraft at corner speed by descending, so the E you burn by turning is matched by the E you get from converting alt to E?

Yes that's what I said.   

...in WW2 fighters you cannot maintain corner speed unless you're descending sufficiently.

[RTHolmes]

[EVZ]

Yes that's what I said.

Yeah! ...  I think there's quite a bit of misunderstanding of the term Corner Speed. Here's -MY- misunderstanding ...

Corner Speed is a very simple statement of an exact speed. This number is based on the -MOST EFFICIENT- ratio of speed / turn radius, in a FLAT TURN. The actual number represents the SPEED AT WHICH YOU ENTER THE TURN. (Note that the term flat turn refers to constant altitude, NOT angle of bank.)

E is burned during the manuver, it is NOT maintained ... The corner speed NUMBER can also be thought of as the speed at which E is USED most efficiently.

???

[wil3ur]

38 does a nice little turn w/ flaps out about 240MPH, and you can actually climb slightly while doing it.  Great thing to reel someone in at the top of a rope.

[FLS]

Yeah! ...  I think there's quite a bit of misunderstanding of the term Corner Speed. Here's -MY- misunderstanding ...

Corner Speed is a very simple statement of an exact speed. This number is based on the -MOST EFFICIENT- ratio of speed / turn radius, in a FLAT TURN. The actual number represents the SPEED AT WHICH YOU ENTER THE TURN. (Note that the term flat turn refers to constant altitude, NOT angle of bank.)

E is burned during the manuver, it is NOT maintained ... The corner speed NUMBER can also be thought of as the speed at which E is USED most efficiently.

???

You are mistaken. Corner speed is simply the lowest speed at which you can pull max sustainable G.

[EVZ]

You are mistaken. Corner speed is simply the lowest speed at which you can pull max sustainable G.

I've seen this definition, it's engineering nomenclature ... And I'm sure it's valid for that purpose ... I'm not sure THAT is what the OP is about ... Pilot Jargon & Engineering Nomenclature aren't always mutually interchangable ... Now please go get me a can of prop wash from the toolroom. And Grab me a Left Handed Spanner Wrench too!

[Krusty]

No... he's right EVZ. It's not semantics. That's the definition of it. Even for pilots.


Corner speed doesn't even come into play for WW2 planes because planes didn't have enough power until well into the jet age to STAY at corner speed (often not even in diving turns) to maintain it for more than a few brief moments.

It's not a useful measurement for this game at all.

[Drano]

If you look at an EM diagram you'll see that high turn rate on the left side and it'll look like a spike or corner at a certain speed and then drop off rather quickly. There's a reason for that. As others have stated this magic speed can only be maintained in a WW2 aircraft by decending as you can't maintain that corner turn rate/speed/G pull in a level turn as you're burning energy. Drag is slowing you down quickly in a level turn. You'll generally only be able to generate "corner" for a brief period. Less than a second maybe. Serious.

Now in a level turn a plane will slow but still be able to maintain a certain highest turn rate--that is the sustained turn rate. This is always lower--by a good bit-- than the corner rate. In that level turn, no matter what you're flying, you'll be able to maintain a certain turn rate at a certain speed and a certain ammount of pull. Pull more, you induce more drag, you slow down--the rate decreases. That's how it works.

Once again that turn rate number everyone looks for is only good for a given configuration on that plane. Lighter on fuel is better than heavier. Lighter makes for better thrust to weight ratio. That way your engine can maintain a higher speed for longer. That engine efficiency is affected by altitude. Lift is affected too. Engines work better on the deck than up high. For the same reason a wing can generate more lift in the lower thicker air than up in the higher thinner air. Flaps are another factor. But it's a double edged sword. They help to a certain extent but the penalty is more drag as you extend them. Too much flap can be a bad thing too.

In short there's a lot of relative states that have to be factored in to define "corner" speed even across similar planes. Lots of things affect it.