P51D vs Yak9U

[Debrody]

Yup, the F4 is 10 times easyer than the pony. Dives the same, almost as fast (even faster on the deck), has an unmatchable instanteous turn rate, climbs only a little bit worse, has more than 2000 rounds... Its only disadvantage is the tail-heavyness and a bit of instability, nothing else. Supper EZ mode.
Its only SFOX keeps telling me my 190F8 at 4k had all the advantages against his 10k 4hog...  hehe

[Krusty]

Give it historic torque forces and it wouldn't be quite so. I recall before AH's airflow recode the F4us were rarely used. They weren't that great. They were solid performers, but NOT super uber turn fighters. Then overnight they're more common than the La7 and more manuverable, to boot! They also became far far far too docile, along with a few other planes in the game.

[Dead Man Flying]

Thats not true most of the time(when considering where most AH fights are at)... here are some examples

k4 vs spit 16 (almost identical climb)

k4 vs la7 (la7 is faster at most common AH alts)

What you've presented is a bit deceptive.  Why compare the K4's climb rate to the Spit XVI's and its top speed to the La7's... But not compare the K4's top speed to the Spit XVI's or the K4's climb rate to the La7's?

The K4 is close to 15% faster than the Spit, and it climbs identically to the La7 on the deck and significantly better at every other altitude.  To go back to another point made in this thread, the K4 has something on just about opponent in the plane set that either aids its survivability or lethality.

[Rich52]

We had our cage match last night, although Relic had already been flying P-51D vs Yak earlier in the TA with a squadie. In each case the result was that the P-51D hasn't a chance, regardless of who flies it. This is a function of the Yak-9U having the same turn radius clean as the P-51D does with full flaps. In a stall fight, that's an insurmountable problem. The Yak driver can elect to use his flaps to get easy angles, or keep them up to dominate the vertical. No doubt that a P-51D pilot who elects to dump flaps and maneuver can catch an unsuspecting Yak pilot flat-footed. That is a common experience, because so many P-51 pilots would rather run than knife fight.

The encounter that made me start this thread was pretty much like every Yak-9 vs 51/Jug encounter Ive ever had. They have Alt/E and I dodge their B&Zs trying to work them lower. I then wait for the one time they get to greedy and burn to much E, or just work themselves out of it, and then get them slow enough to where I can use the Yaks superior climb to get an angle on them. With some 51 Jocks its not easy, they know their machine to well. But any turn fight im in with a Yak, against a 51/Jug, will not be a flat turn fight.

Frankly its the spixteens that really give my Yaks problems. But if your running a Yak to slow theres a lot of planes that can bring grief. Anyway I was working a good 51 jock like this, and it was turning into a humdinger "he was good", when someone I didnt see picked me. I frankly ask on vox before dropping in on a 1 on 1. The good ones are rare.

[Ardy123]

What you've presented is a bit deceptive.

not as deceptive as taking my statement out of context and ignoring the quote I posted above it to which it was responding too...

so, here is the quote I was referring too for those who may have not seen it.

That's misleading because the K4 has climb and speed unmatched by anything unperked in the game.

My point was to prove that the K4 is matched in climb or speed by other non-perk plane in the game and the graphs prove it.

EDIT: as to the rest of your statment

The K4 is close to 15% faster than the Spit, and it climbs identically to the La7 on the deck and significantly better at every other altitude.  To go back to another point made in this thread, the K4 has something on just about opponent in the plane set that either aids its survivability or lethality.

Yes a K4 is 15% faster, than a spit but a accelerates faster in dives and has better guns with a much better effective range. Also, at the higher speeds, the k4 becomes heavy on the stick, negating much of an advantage, where as a spit at the same speed doesn't suffer from such issues...

plane	k4	spit 16
turn radius		*
top speed	*
better compression behavior		*
climb	*	*
dive acceleration		*
effective gun range		*

But back to what I stated originally, I think the popularity of the K4 is more to do with a few top sticks flying it rather than any of its 'merits'.
And, yeah, Grizz in a p40b would not kill grizz in a k4, but the point was, almost no one is Grizz, so grizz in a p40B > than most in anything. Thus, whatever ride Grizz and a few others choose to fly, many would soon emulate them in hopes of garnering their success.

[Debrody]

I would disagree with you, Bunny.
Grizz, or anyone from the top10 would PWN the very large majority in the P40B, true. In a turnfight. But just like they learned with the g6, they would learn very soon:
"NOT to turn with the P40B couse your spit might get PWNed in 2 turns. Climb or run away instead"
<insert a sad face here>

[Ardy123]

I would disagree with you, Bunny.
Grizz, or anyone from the top10 would PWN the very large majority in the P40B, true. In a turnfight. But just like they learned with the g6, they would learn very soon:
"NOT to turn with the P40B couse your spit might get PWNed in 2 turns. Climb or run away instead"
<insert a sad face here>

maybe... but then again, brewsters & zeros are popular and are successful in the MA yet one can easily run away from one. I think it depends on the number of people flying it initially. If you had a 20+ people good in it, people might behave differently as they would know its not necessarily only Grizz in the p40b.

[Dead Man Flying]

My point was to prove that the K4 is matched in climb or speed by other non-perk plane in the game and the graphs prove it.

And my point is that you ignored the rest of BoilerDown's statement, which is:  "What makes the K4 such an easy choice is that it doesn't matter what everyone else is flying, the K4 is better than it in the same two ways, only the degree of better is different."  You showed how the K4 was matched along one dimension, but you didn't show how other planes were better in both ways.

BoilerDown's statement is an exaggeration, but his basic premise rings true - if the K4 is matched in climb by a plane, it outmatches it in speed, and if it's matched in speed, it beats it in climb.  That makes it an extraordinarily versatile plane.  Not easy to fly, per se, but definitely versatile.  The rest of your response simply downplays the advantages of a 109 (it has far, far better low speed vertical handling than a Spit XVI and more forgiving stall characteristics) and overstates the strengths of the Spit XVI.

Note that I didn't suggest that the K4 is better than the Spit XVI overall, because I don't think that's a fair statement.  It's just not insanely worse as many like to suggest.

But back to what I stated originally, I think the popularity of the K4 is more to do with a few top sticks flying it rather than any of its 'merits'.

It's both.  The top sticks fly it because of its merits, and people who see how well they do with it try to emulate them.  I always enjoyed flying planes that fit my style of playing, and I suspect that the same is true for the K4 experts.  It's versatile and has a lot of cool things it can do with practice.  It's fun and can control most fights.  I'm not surprised at all that players gravitate to it.

so grizz in a p40B > than most in anything.

Grizz in a P40B would get frustrated pretty quickly at the plane's lack of lethality.  A lot of his flying style, from what I've seen, involves setting up for a passing kill shot.  He's willing to take major risks in positioning in order to set up the perfect shot on a pass.  That doesn't work with a P40B.  He'd be very, very good in it, but it's not a plane that allows him to fly to his strengths.  That's not a slight on Grizz, more like a compliment to the fact that he matched his skill at setting up angles and his penchant for hitting snapshots with exactly the right plane in the K4.

[Spork]

maybe... but then again, brewsters & zeros are popular and are successful in the MA yet one can easily run away from one. I think it depends on the number of people flying it initially. If you had a 20+ people good in it, people might behave differently as they would know its not necessarily only Grizz in the p40b.

I would attribute the success of the bewster and zero more to the "gaming" enviroment than actual plane vs. plane. People get unlimited planes and lives so they up from a capped base in an aircraft that gives them the highest chance of success for kills. A "turny" plane. Same goes for a CV attack. Cons will be low and slow, so they up something that will give them the best shot opportunites. CVs and Base Caps are really the only time I see a brewster or zero, whereas, the 51D and the Yak will be a sector or two from their home base and at "high" altitude.

Just my opinions, no facts to base it on.

 
Spork

[Ardy123]

And my point is that you ignored the rest of BoilerDown's statement, which is:  "What makes the K4 such an easy choice is that it doesn't matter what everyone else is flying, the K4 is better than it in the same two ways, only the degree of better is different."  You showed how the K4 was matched along one dimension, but you didn't show how other planes were better in both ways.

2 things...
1) boilerDowns statement is invalid any way you look at it..
  a) He states that the k4 is better in climb and speed than all other non-perk planes.
  b) He states that if you can find out of an infinite set of characteristics, 2 that the k4 has and adv with.  This is by far the most absurd. consider this, "I think the d3a is the best plane because I auger the lest in it and it turns the tightest"

2) My response was in reaction to Boilerdowns argument. Your argument and his are fundamentally different.
 
   Boilerdowns argument:   (K4.speed and k4.climb) > {set of all other non-perked planes) (The part that can be rationally deduced)
   Your argument:   (K4.speed or k4.climb) > {set of all other non-perked planes)

[Dead Man Flying]

2) My response was in reaction to Boilerdowns argument. Your argument and his are fundamentally different.
 
   Boilerdowns argument:   (K4.speed and k4.climb) > {set of all other non-perked planes) (The part that can be rationally deduced)
   Your argument:   (K4.speed or k4.climb) > {set of all other non-perked planes)

I think that's a fair conclusion.  Like I said, his statement was an exaggeration but not entirely inaccurate.  But now you're arguing about who argued what rather than defending the position you made earlier that the 109 isn't that great.  It is great - undeniably great - and in the right hands becomes one of the top non-perked planes in the set.  There's really no point in trying to downplay its strengths.  It isn't an immediately easy plane to fly or master, but that doesn't make it weak.

[Ardy123]

I think that's a fair conclusion.

Good, now we agree that they are different arguments, quoting my statements to boilerdown's argument are inadmissible to your argument, which was my point a half page ago.

Like I said, his statement was an exaggeration but not entirely inaccurate.  

His argument does not support yours, they are different, so either you are arguing
(k4.speed or k4.climb) > {non-perk plane set}
or you are arguing his argument
(k4.speed and k4.climb) > {non-perk plane set}.

To be arguing both is to be arguing his argument and not the one you claim to be arguing.
((k4.speed and k4.climb) and  (k4.speed or k4.climb)) > {non-perk plane set} = (k4.speed and k4.climb) > {non-perk plane set}

 It is great - undeniably great - and in the right hands becomes one of the top non-perked planes in the set.  There's really no point in trying to downplay its strengths.  It isn't an immediately easy plane to fly or master, but that doesn't make it weak.

How do you define 'undeniably great'?  your argument now has infinite attributes of which you are selectively choosing from to decide 'greatness' from, rendering it effectively moot. All planes must be compared too using the same attributes.

My initial argument used two attributes, turn radius and speed.

1) the k4 is fast, but not the fastest plane. Its speed is is an 9 on a scale of 1-10.
2) the k4 turn radius is average at best. I'll put it at a 5 on a scale of 1-10.

[Dead Man Flying]

Good, now we agree that they are different arguments, quoting my statements to boilerdown's argument are inadmissible to your argument, which was my point a half page ago.

Inadmissible?  You're funny.  I think this represents the logic of it well.

(k4.speedrank + k4.climbrank)/2 > {(nonk4.speedrank + nonk4.climbrank)/2 of non-perk plane set}

If you consider a rank ordering of planes by capability with 1 as the worst and 10 as the best, the K4 would average a higher rank than other non-perk planes on these two dimensions.

How do you define 'undeniably great'?  your argument now has infinite attributes of which you are selectively choosing from to decide 'greatness' from, rendering it effectively moot. All planes must be compared too using the same attributes.

You said an F4U-4 was the best prop plane in the game.  What criteria were you using there?  What attributes are you selectively choosing from to decide "best?"  I bet a Val outturns it and is better at augering, after all.  Would a Val not be "best" at those attributes?

[Ardy123]

Inadmissible?  You're funny.  I think this represents the logic of it well.

(k4.speedrank + k4.climbrank)/2 > {(nonk4.speedrank + nonk4.climbrank)/2 of non-perk plane set}

If you consider a rank ordering of planes by capability with 1 as the worst and 10 as the best, the K4 would average a higher rank than other non-perk planes on these two dimensions.

You said an F4U-4 was the best prop plane in the game.  What criteria were you using there?  What attributes are you selectively choosing from to decide "best?"  I bet a Val outturns it and is better at augering, after all.  Would a Val not be "best" at those attributes?

ahh trying to save face with humor and hyperbole ehh? You just capitulated...  

EDIT: postponed my BBS victory dance

[FireDrgn]

The encounter that made me start this thread was pretty much like every Yak-9 vs 51/Jug encounter Ive ever had. They have Alt/E and I dodge their B&Zs trying to work them lower. I then wait for the one time they get to greedy and burn to much E, or just work themselves out of it, and then get them slow enough to where I can use the Yaks superior climb to get an angle on them. With some 51 Jocks its not easy, they know their machine to well. But any turn fight im in with a Yak, against a 51/Jug, will not be a flat turn fight.

Frankly its the spixteens that really give my Yaks problems. But if your running a Yak to slow theres a lot of planes that can bring grief. Anyway I was working a good 51 jock like this, and it was turning into a humdinger "he was good", when someone I didnt see picked me. I frankly ask on vox before dropping in on a 1 on 1. The good ones are rare.

the spits are hard do to the enviroment more than the plane. It takes more time to set them up and you just dont get that kind of time to often in the MA.  my favorite is to run them in cirlces till they out of wep or the fourth over shoot cut the throttle and full rudder and drop in behind them. Its more of a phyc job than out flying them but effective non the less.