Who thinks that Bombers in the game have jumped the shark?

[Jayhawk]

I've seen bombers do a roll and keep their wings on, but I've also seen bombers go from level flight to auto-climb and rip their wings off.

[Rich52]

+1 on my quotes

Shouldn't the bombers have a max calibrated speed? Skillfull pilots should still be able to compensate manually.

The problem with that is, at least for me, I cant keep a drop calibrated at a less then Max speed. Its either my stick or my USB but i get angle drift if I calibrate using and RPM or manual setting. Since I notice no group of bombers stay at exactly the same speed, while in formation, no matter what the setting. I assume Im not the only one with this issue.

Biggest thing I see different, from years ago, is that there isnt the amount of skilled bomber hunters in the game that there used to be. Frankly also there are also far less, and fewer, bomber sticks and squads that fly the big friends in Historical correct ways then there used to be.

[Karnak]

I've seen bombers do a roll and keep their wings on, but I've also seen bombers go from level flight to auto-climb and rip their wings off.

Well, historically the Lancaster was capable of a full roll without shedding parts.  An A-20G pilot told me that they were not allowed to roll inverted in the A-20 due to wing loss.  I don't know if that is true or just something they were told to keep them from trying it.

[TheRapier]

Grizz, please . . .

Huh? You are getting owned by bombers in a turn fight?

Nothing was said about a turn fight. I'd "think" you'd know better than that but then maybe?

If you've been flying lately you have to have seen one of these guys. The bombers are diving to put you onto their tail guns, then shred you that way or go level and really shred you. They pull Gs in a pull out ya see .

So you can rest assured that you are the smartest/most qualified/best ACM person in the room . No need to prove it here. 

[Wiley]

If you've been flying lately you have to have seen one of these guys. The bombers are diving to put you onto their tail guns, then shred you that way or go level and really shred you. They pull Gs in a pull out ya see .

Respectfully, two questions:  How often are you seeing this?  Secondly, why are you walking into their six?  The guys that do this eventually run out of sky and you can slash them to death.

The no tracers thing is a legitimate gripe, but the rest of the stuff you described...  The only thing that I find difficult when a guy immelmans a buff is getting some rounds onto his drones so I get perks for the kills instead of the proxy.

It would be cool if buffs couldn't gun above a certain G load, but I can't think of a single instance in the last month... actually 'ever' where a guy barrel rolled his B24 and shot me down on the way through...

Wiley.

[Jayhawk]

Shame on these bombers for not flying strait and level for you to shoot at.  Nosing down to get a better shot!! Unheard of!

There are a few extremes, I really hate to see 4-engine bombers making a 90 degree drive strait down.  However, it's just so rare of an occurrence, I don't think it's a problem.

How do you know how many Gs are being exerted on the bomber when you're flying in your fighter?  Though there are legitimate complaints, I think most of these are simply fighters crying that the big bad bomber guy got them.  "The bomber turned when I shot at him!?  Unrealistic!!!"

[EagleDNY]

As somebody you will regularly find in a group of B-17s, let me say that maybe 2 in 10 fighter jocks in this game know how to make an attack against a box of bombers.   Most of those bad-oscar fighter jocks I shoot down are just mindlessly attacking my tail like sheep coming to the slaughter.  Since there is no "penalty" for getting blasted from the sky by 12 50-cals when you saddle up under the tail of a box of B-17s, they don't care if they lose a fighter just to get one of my drones.  I am amazed how many people take the time to climb directly over me, and then figure a good place to be is sitting 200 yard off my tailguns blasting away at a drone. 

<S> those of you that actually learn how to make a slashing attack on a B-17 and live.   

[Butcher]

<S> those of you that actually learn how to make a slashing attack on a B-17 and live.   

I've said it before and ill say it again - A good gunner is going to whip your butt regardless, 999000 is one of those you just don't get to many free shots with him.

I took n00fer into a custom arena to do some B17s vs 262 practice, showing him how to slash attack, he got the hang of it after 2-3 tries, however most just won't listen/learn like this.

The most patient fighter I know is Snailman, who will hunt your buffs and wait for that perfect time to attack, taking his time and executing it.

[Zoney]

I've said it before and ill say it again - A good gunner is going to whip your butt regardless, 999000 is one of those you just don't get to many free shots with him.

I took n00fer into a custom arena to do some B17s vs 262 practice, showing him how to slash attack, he got the hang of it after 2-3 tries, however most just won't listen/learn like this.

The most patient fighter I know is Snailman, who will hunt your buffs and wait for that perfect time to attack, taking his time and executing it.

When you're a snail, patience is not an option.

[Beefcake]

So if I'm flying my B25Cs in formation and you attack from my low 6 where I'm defenseless, it's therefor considered wrong and unfair if I put my bombers in a shallow climb and roll to give the top turret downward depression?

Granted I realize it's dweeby, but if I feel like the fighter pilot I'm facing in my bombers is a decent stick I will make them work for my kill(s). This means I may climb, I may dive, I may turn...hard, I may chop throttle, I may firewall throttle, the point is I will make them work for it. Remember it's a game, not life.

[Jayhawk]

The most patient fighter I know is Snailman, who will hunt your buffs and wait for that perfect time to attack, taking his time and executing it.

Snailman was always a lot of fun to run into while in a set of bombers, I ran into him a few times while he was in bombers as well.  Top notch guy! 

[TheRapier]

I want to thank everyone for chiming in. I do appreciate all the effort to reinterpret this into something it isn't, or something I've said into something I didn't say . Makes for good communication and an enjoyable experience.

After 22 years of online air combat, even in my little brain, I've figured out a few things about flight games. I know how to knock down bombers, and I know how to stay off of their six if they are flown realistically. Patience is not a problem for me. You can believe that or not but that's not what I'm bringing forward. It's not really important what I do or don't do in game.

Bottom line, the issue is:

• Does the modeling in the game force these planes (and the fighters of course) to be flown realisitically?
• Is the gunnery model realistic?

I'd have to say there is reasonable evidence that it fails on both of those accounts. I'm asking HTC, is this what they intend? If it is, it tells us the kind of game being made. If it isn't it would seem that rectifying those problems would be something that hits a "to do" list somewhere.

Back to your regularly scheduled evisceration . . .

[Jayhawk]

I want to thank everyone for chiming in. I do appreciate all the effort to reinterpret this into something it isn't, or something I've said into something I didn't say . Makes for good communication and an enjoyable experience.

After 22 years of online air combat, even in my little brain, I've figured out a few things about flight games. I know how to knock down bombers, and I know how to stay off of their six if they are flown realistically. Patience is not a problem for me. You can believe that or not but that's not what I'm bringing forward. It's not really important what I do or don't do in game.

Bottom line, the issue is:

• Does the modeling in the game force these planes (and the fighters of course) to be flown realisitically?
• Is the gunnery model realistic?

I'd have to say there is reasonable evidence that it fails on both of those accounts. I'm asking HTC, is this what they intend? If it is, it tells us the kind of game being made. If it isn't it would seem that rectifying those problems would be something that hits a "to do" list somewhere.

Back to your regularly scheduled evisceration . . .

A lot of posts are simply general posts, not directed at you personally.

I think the big thing we disagree on is "reasonable evidence" that there is  problem.  I'm sure it's not perfect, I wouldn't mind seeing some changes.  But, overall I don't think bomber flight dynamics are any more "unrealistic" than fighters. 

What is your issue with bomber guns?

[The Fugitive]

I want to thank everyone for chiming in. I do appreciate all the effort to reinterpret this into something it isn't, or something I've said into something I didn't say . Makes for good communication and an enjoyable experience.

After 22 years of online air combat, even in my little brain, I've figured out a few things about flight games. I know how to knock down bombers, and I know how to stay off of their six if they are flown realistically. Patience is not a problem for me. You can believe that or not but that's not what I'm bringing forward. It's not really important what I do or don't do in game.

Bottom line, the issue is:

• Does the modeling in the game force these planes (and the fighters of course) to be flown realisitically?
• Is the gunnery model realistic?

I'd have to say there is reasonable evidence that it fails on both of those accounts. I'm asking HTC, is this what they intend? If it is, it tells us the kind of game being made. If it isn't it would seem that rectifying those problems would be something that hits a "to do" list somewhere.

Back to your regularly scheduled evisceration . . .

I believe that both are true. The problem comes to the for when you add in the ability to arise from the dead instantly.

I believe the real planes that the cartoon ones are modeled after would, and could perform as they do in the game. The biggest difference is our planes don't get wear and tear and while you could do these maneuvers in the real planes you wouldn't get away with it for ever, and one mistake could be your last.

Here on the other hand, we can do these maneuvers over and over with out fear of the plane failing, nor, should we screw the pooch, dieing. HTC has used the data they think is most accurate and this is what we get. This being a game, people who CAN not or WILL not try to excel with training and skill instead look for the "short cuts" to get around that whole issue of "learning" and "practicing" to build a "skill". So instead of flying with a friend or two to create bigger buff groups that can protect each other they fly alone and count on ridiculous evasive maneuvers, or just don't care whether or not they get shot down as so use them as dive bombers and ground straffers.

[Beefcake]

I want to thank everyone....

I'm sorry if I came off wrong Rapier as I have the up most respect for you in this community.

To answer your question with my opinion.

Does the modeling in the game force these planes (and the fighters of course) to be flown realisitically?

No it doesn't, and IMO never should. Many planes in AH could be pushed harder and do things IRL that no sane crew would ever do unless their life was on the line. Bombers could do some pretty incredible things but like you said most of these maneuvers would throw the crew around or cause other problems.

HTC has modeled these aircraft according to their information and they've given us a sandbox to play in and do whatever we want with these planes within the rules of the game. Some of this stuff can be seen as dweeby to some while for others it's their source of fun. When the B29's came out one of the first things I did was take off and find a tank battle to dive bomb with it. Why? Because I'm not sane, and everyone that was around got a great laugh out of it.



One reason I love AH is the fact that I get to take planes and push them in ways they were never used, BUT, had the ability to do. My favorite past time is flying the B25C into furballs and dogfighting, something it was NEVER ment to do. I die 99.8% of the time when I do this, but there is that 0.02% chance that I will get multiple A2A kills with the thing and get a change to land them....that is what I play the game for.



If HTC were to restrict bombers to only flying certain ways and only being able to drop bombs in certain ways it would most likely kill the game for me.

Secondly....

Is the gunnery model realistic?

Yes and no. The guns fire like they should and with trajectories like they should, however, bomber gunners never were "in-tune" with one another like they are here. What you have to remember is the pilot of a bomber is doing the jobs of multiple men, I mean when flying a B17 formation 1 player is doing the jobs of 30 men! If the player could only fire 1 gun at a time it would mean the death of a bomber as the fighter pilot would only be facing a fraction of the firepower the plane had IRL. Secondly even though bomber defensive fire wasn't as concentrated IRL like it is in here, it was still a pretty big threat.

Although not completely realistic I feel that bomber gunnery in Aces High is a good balance. Yes a player controlling 36 x .50s on a set of B17s is a bit much, however, you should be attacking those bombers with a wingman anyway. Seriously, two fighters attacking a set of bombers GREATLY increases the chances of killing them by splitting their defensive fire, even with a gunner on board.