How do you approach a Spit?

[SIK1]

Dave it sounds like you are on the right path to learn what you want to about dogfighting. I know that it seems the more experienced sticks seem to give answers that basically tell you to get better. Keep in mind that it is really difficult to tell someone how to read the E state of their opponent, or how to time your break turn so he can't get a shot on you. Sure I can tell you when he's about 800 out, but how fast is he closing, is he high, low, off angle. All those thing play into how and when I break into an opponent. Knowing when to do what is also something not as easy to explain as it might seem since every engagement is different.Things like that take time to learn, and can be difficult to explain. That's why practice, practice, and more practice is the answer you usually get.

Also there are things that more experienced sticks may do without realizing that not everyone knows about them. An example is unloading the air frame in a climb, at the top of a rolling scissors, or when shooting.

Don't be afraid to ask the more experienced players how they do what they do. Most will help you, and you might be surprised how helpful they can be.

[titanic3]

PFD, there's way too many scenarios to list and answer every question about them. But, if someone has a specific question then they'll get a specific answer. If it's a general question like the name of this thread, they'll get a general answer.

[PFactorDave]

PFD, there's way too many scenarios to list and answer every question about them. But, if someone has a specific question then they'll get a specific answer. If it's a general question like the name of this thread, they'll get a general answer.

That's exactly my point....  Quit with the useless general crap...  It's worthless...  Give us a specific scenario and how to respond to it instead of platiudes.

It would be more useful to start with "X plane with more E diving on you in Y plane, try this"...  Etc...  As far as I know, HTC won't delete your threads for approaching more possibilities even if they don't cover every possibility.  Why is it so anthema to approach a specific situation with a specifc answer?


Don't you think that WW2 commanders had specific advice for their pilots on what to do if X plane was diving on them?


Will it cover every event?  No, of course not.  But my arguement is that it will be more useful to build on then the usual, "fight more, get better"...

The arguement seems to be, " We can't tell you exactly how to handle every situation, so we aren't going to tell you how to handle any of them...  Figure it out yourself."

Been doing that for 4 years now.  I want more then, "Get better".

[PFactorDave]

You know what...  I'm a bit cranky today.  It was Easter and the wife had to work (first time since we have been married), and the kids were a pain (probably because they have expectations about such Holidays which were unrealistic this year)...  I realize now that when I started this thread, I wasn't specific enough to generate the discussion I was after...

Let's start over...

Assume a Spitfire8 is approaching you...  Either Co-Alt, Higher alt, or lower alt (your choice, but lower alt isn't that helpful)...  What would YOU DO or WATCH FOR HIM TO DO in X PLANE OF YOUR CHOICE...

Specifics are useful to build tactics on....  Generalities really aren't very useful.

[PFactorDave]

Dave it sounds like you are on the right path to learn what you want to about dogfighting. I know that it seems the more experienced sticks seem to give answers that basically tell you to get better. Keep in mind that it is really difficult to tell someone how to read the E state of their opponent, or how to time your break turn so he can't get a shot on you. Sure I can tell you when he's about 800 out, but how fast is he closing, is he high, low, off angle. All those thing play into how and when I break into an opponent. Knowing when to do what is also something not as easy to explain as it might seem since every engagement is different.Things like that take time to learn, and can be difficult to explain. That's why practice, practice, and more practice is the answer you usually get.

Also there are things that more experienced sticks may do without realizing that not everyone knows about them. An example is unloading the air frame in a climb, at the top of a rolling scissors, or when shooting.

Don't be afraid to ask the more experienced players how they do what they do. Most will help you, and you might be surprised how helpful they can be.

Well duh...  I'm sorry...  Nothing you have just said will teach anyone anything other than that they aren't experienced enough to ask questions.

Is that a good thing for Aces High as a community?

Practice practice practice is you answer...  Great...  That's so enlightening...

Put 10 kids who have never seen a basketball on a court.  Tell them to play the game.  Then tell them to make a basket.  How?  Well they should practice practice practice...

Do you understand why the general stuff is garbage yet?

Show those kids how to shoot a jump shot from a given spot on the court and you have shown them something to start from...

Honestly, I have a fair amount of confidence in my own abilities, it just annoys the crap out of me that nobody is willing to get specific in this forum on the BBS...

Everyone is too darn afraid of being misunderstood or having the next "experten" tell them they are wrong.

[PFactorDave]

rawr

[coombz]

I know where you're coming from Dave and agree to an extent

I think the 'how to avoid the first bounce' thread, or whatever it was called was a good example of some top sticks giving specific instructions on how to fly in those specific scenarios, and it would be good to get more of that

one thing I have thought of doing is posting short film clips of some of the excellent moves other people pull on me and asking for more info on exactly what and how they were doing...

[BaldEagl]

OK, since I fly Spits all the time and have made every mistake in the Spitfire mistake book I'll give you one example of how to beat one.  Actually this one example will give you several options.  BTW I'm no expert.

When you throttle off a Spit on landing they slow down like a boat.  They aren't like an F6F or a 109 or a 190 or anything else I fly regularily.  They simply don't hold E with the throttle off.  But give them a little power and you can't bleed E even in a turn.  

Under power Spits hold E like no other plane and that's a way to beat one.  I've gone one, two and even three full turns before I've bled enough E to be able to pop flaps.  Even in a hard turn they just won't slow down under power.  Even vertical turns might not be enough and even if the Spit gets to pop flaps at the top they might retract on the way down placing him in the same situation.  

An inexperienced Spit driver might not be experienced enough to control throttle and in that vertical fight even if he does he might also have to cross control to keep speeds and flaps down.  Even an experienced pilot might be too busy or too engaged or be carrying to much E.  Against a faster plane I don't like to throttle back at all because I don't want to let a faster plane have a chance to get away.

Depending what you're flying and relative E states the likelyhood of you being able to pop flaps and get inside the Spit early is possible but if you don't do it within the first two turns it could get ugly.  If you're near the deck when you do this in a vertical manouver you might even get to see a high E retention Spit nose dive into terra firma.  It happened to me within the past two weeks...  I got him... I got him... UhOh... Splat!  Even if you don't pop flaps it's a safe bet the Spit is flying near blackout so use that to your advantage.  You might also be able to get a flaps out rolling scissors going to gain an early advantage.

IMO excellent E retention is the Spits biggest weakness and it's exploitable.

BTW, try to keep him nose down if he's losing E.

[DMVIAGRA]

The spitfire hardly defined England's 'unbroken spirit'. Even saying that it exemplifies that spirit is greatly stretching a point.

I mean the UK had at one point, what, like 50 operational spitfires during the Battle of Britain, while the Hurricanes bore the brunt of the work? No matter how laughable giving so fearsome a name to so sedate a fighter is, it sounds as though you ought to be praising the Hurricane over the Spitfire.



Or did you mean to say it defined the spirit of letting the USA bear the brunt of the work later on in the war?

That's right! There were so many Hurricanes, very lethal bomber killers to be exact. Also what I dislike is how there are no Sea Hurris on carriers (Firefly or Fulmar). I mean the Sea Fire was quite rare to find honestly.

[uptown]

@ Dave. I know exactly what you're saying. I been practicing for 6 years now, but I problem was I didn't know what I need to practice.  That is until I started working with a trainer. I've always thought I had a very good merge but just couldn't out loop that better turning plane. As I finding out as my training comes along, all this time I've been just a tad late on my merges. Last weekend I put into practice what I'm being taught and I was getting my P38 nose over before most of the Spitfires I was encountering  .

The use of my flaps are often now quite correct, my plane control while slow and at top of the loop was very poor also. All this is what my trainer (BigRat) has pointed out to me, (as well as Ink), that I need to work on and practice. And it's paying off. Your issues probably aren't the same as mine but I highly recommend setting up some time with a trainer to point out where your flying my be lacking.

Personally, I'd hate to see ya get any better as you give me fits when I fly against you now. 

[FLS]

This is the Training BBS, do us noobs a favor and talk us through scenarios...  Quit trying to wow us with rhetoric...


You know...  I know that air combat is a complex affair.  But then again, I have always felt that some of the general answers offered up are nothing more then the more talented folks telling the less talented folks to, "Get better at it."

I understand your frustration with people who tell you just to practice until you get a feel for it.

The problem with specific instructions is that they require the bandit to also follow specific instructions. Since we can't count on that I believe it's best to give general instruction that applies to all aircraft in all tactical situations.

If you compare and contrast what you know about a particular model Spitfire vs a Ki-84 for example then the results should suggest a course of action based on your general knowledge of flying and air combat. If you lack this general knowledge then you'll probably want to schedule some training.

[mtnman]

I find this interesting.  I was wondering if you maybe could provide a few examples of "you see him doing X" so "you do Y to adjust your speed, size, or shape of your manuevers".  I think it might be useful for some of us to have some examples of you you apply your thinking to a fight.  Unfortunately, general statements are hard for some of us to apply.

Good questions Dave, and I understand your frustration.  I'll do my best to give you some specific examples.

There are some problems with giving specific direction, of course, but I'll do my best.  Feel free to toss any questions you come up with my way.  I'll be happy to answer the ones I can.  I'll have to be brief this morning (on my way to work) but I can continue later.

Some of this will seem "general" at first, but please bear with me.  The specifics depend on the generalities.

I approach my flying/fighting the same way I do many of the other aspects of life.  I look for patterns/trends, and I notice specific, small details.  I'm also quick to associate what my target is doing, with what I'D likely do in the same situation.  What would I be seeing, thinking, expecting, and planning to do?  Knowing that, what can I do in my current situation to take advantage of that?

Thinking that way allows me to set "traps" for my opponent.  Beyond that, it allows me to prepare for him doing something, and be ready to instantly capitalize on it when he does it.  

It allows me some "freedom" with my thought processes, because I'm not "waiting for him to make a mistake".  If I did that, I'd have to wait until he did something, see it, recognize it, and then act on it (and because I didn't know he was going to do it, I may not be ready for it, in position for it, at the right speed, angle, etc).

"Waiting for him to make a mistake" doesn't work for me very well.  I suspect it also doesn't work well for a LOT of other people.

Instead, I do MUCH better if I set a trap for my opponent.  If I do that, I can anticipate the results, and watch them occur.  I'll no right away if things aren't developing the way I want/need them to, and I'll adjust to see if I can correct the matter.  If I can't correct it to give me a shot solution, I'll just adjust to survive at the least cost possible to me (and at the greatest cost to him) and then set another trap (maybe the same one).

So, the traps...  I used to do a fair amount of animal trapping, and bowhunting.  Those activities depend on some key components.  Obviously, making sure the target is available to begin with, in suitable numbers.  But then it comes to some specifics.  To catch a fox, you DO NOT just go set a trap for a fox.  If you do, you WILL NOT catch a fox.  The "trick" isn't even to catch the fox; it's to catch its right front foot.  Set properly, that trap will catch almost any fox that happens along, but will not catch a dog or coyote if they should happen along...  I'm not going to explain how to do that, but that's also how I approach fights in AH.  It'll serve as a good example.

To see the specifics involved , try (or imagine) this exercise.  Set a "trap" for your dog.  Pick a mark on the floor about the size of a golf ball.  You goal is to have your dog place his right front foot there, willingly, without your control.  If you can do that, consider him "trapped".  Use a treat, toy, or whatever...  You also don't want him to just brush his foot over that spot, you want him to place it there firmly.  That may seem impossible, but it's easy if you include some "guides".

Sounds nuts so far?  I'll be back tonight...

[Oldman731]

Give me one...  Co-alt in a Ki84 vs a Spit16, what is something that he might do that would make you think, "He screwed the pooch.  Now I'm going to..."  

Spit pilots are used to being able to out-knife-fight all other planes.  Very few aircraft fly, turn and maintain their altitude at low speed as well as the Frank (with judicious use of its flaps).  So play his game.  As mtnman suggests, many Spit drivers don't pay enough attention to throttle control.  If you're engaged with one of these, slow down the fight.  You will be able to stay co-alt and turn with him, or climb above him and use yo-yos to turn inside him.

Hey, try it and see what happens.

- oldman

[Guppy35]

That's right! There were so many Hurricanes, very lethal bomber killers to be exact. Also what I dislike is how there are no Sea Hurris on carriers (Firefly or Fulmar). I mean the Sea Fire was quite rare to find honestly.

I don't even know where to start after this one.  Could you please go do some research and then try again please.

[Ack-Ack]

The spitfire hardly defined England's 'unbroken spirit'. Even saying that it exemplifies that spirit is greatly stretching a point.

I mean the UK had at one point, what, like 50 operational spitfires during the Battle of Britain, while the Hurricanes bore the brunt of the work? No matter how laughable giving so fearsome a name to so sedate a fighter is, it sounds as though you ought to be praising the Hurricane over the Spitfire.



Or did you mean to say it defined the spirit of letting the USA bear the brunt of the work later on in the war?

The RAF had more than 50 operational Spitfires available to them during the Battle of Britain.  Please do some research before making outragous claims.

ack-ack