Oscar

[Karnak]

I disagree; there is *no* thresh-hold of skill; just as there is no thresh-hold in a plane's ability and capability; as what is claimed here.

You got lucky, like a camel pilot who found a 262 taxi'ing on the runway.

Pretty much sums it up.

Disagree.  The F1 Camel strafing an Me262 on the runway does not involve the Me262 trying to kill the F1 Camel.  In the scenario I described the P-47N tried to kill the D3A1 and due to lack of skill got shot down by the D3A1.

[ink]

 my opinion on the whole debate about pilot "skill" vs "plane performance"

the closer to skill the 2 pilots are, plane performance becomes more of a factor....it is simple really

a vet (who actually fights) will always win against a noob in the better plane...even if the planes performance are at opposite ends of the spectrum.....

2 pilots of equal skill (in all aspects of fighting) in the same plane with equal E....it will be the first one that makes a mistake that loses......

2 pilots of equal skill.... the one that is in the better performing plane, will win..... the easier the win will be if the planes performance is further apart.

the great thing about dogfighting are all the variables....NO 2 dogfights are ever the same, that is why I find dogfighting so enthralling.

[Tank-Ace]

If two equal pilots fly a P51-D and one makes a mistake the other can't run/recover from being killed, only Drastic performance can change that - a 109E vs P51D a P51D can run away, leaving a veteran in the dust.

Pilot skill always wins over performance.

You missed what I was saying there, kiddo.

I didn't (and I think nobody has, thus far in the thread) say that preformance trumps skill definitively. It can trump small and perhaps even moderate differences in skill; I mean the difference between good and bad is bigger than the difference between good and great. But its not going to let a noob beat a 10 year veteran, and I've never said that.

However, I did say that preformance isn't irrelvent. High-Tone would have his work cut out for him knocking my K4 down. I'm not gonna play his turny game, and his Ki-43 would simply lack the nessecary power to play the energy game with my 109, and thus I can dictate the terms of the fight. I would even go so far as to say that the power defecit of the Ki-43 is great enough that I could fight a bit of an energy catch-up game. And worst case scenario, even though I hate such moves, I could always go for a HO since one tater and he's scrap metal.

[Tank-Ace]

The pilot that used his plane to the best of its ability, mistake free will win the fight 90% of the time regardless of the planes performance. And really the Ki43 would be more able to recover from a mistake than a Ki61? When was the last time you have taken up a Ki61? It's faster, dives better, has pilot armor and self sealing fuel tanks and is much more able to recover from a bad pilot move than the Ki43 would ever be able to do. Your lack of understanding of these aircraft is clouding your thoughts.

When you do start subscribing to AH again, I challenge you to a fight. I'll take the D3A and you can take any plane with a prop. I will show you then how a pilots tactics and decision making plays more into the out come of the fight than your planes on paper stats.

Yes, the pilot that flys his plane perfectly is obviously going to be more likely to win than someone who can barely maintain level flight. But the pilot that makes no mistakes is most certinally not going to beat the pilot that makes one mistake and has a big advantage in preformance 90% of the time.

You seem to assume that not making a mistake means that your opponent is unskilled, and that he is making both major and numerous mistakes. However that is not the case, and thats not what the origonal scenario (when I first made the comment you quoted) was. The situation I was describing was equal pilot skill, equal E and possition, which is a scenario where preformance is likely the determining factor. Even in a situation with some skill difference, even if not a great one, preformance is going to factor into things.


I've seen you fight, and have even fought you a couple times; you're good, I admit, but you're not good enough to beat me in a 109E when I'm in a K4, or in a 190F when I'm in an A5. You might be able to force a draw in something turny, since I wasn't great at high angle shots and have almost certinally gotten worse since I left, but you certinally can't force an engagment, and are guaranteed to lose a HO against just about anything I fly. Really it would come down to one of three things: who runs out of fuel first, if I get tired of making passes I don't have a good guns solution for and just start mixing it up, or if I run out of ammo taking those shots.


And meant to say Ki-84 is more able to recover from a mistake than the Ki-61, not the Ki-43 compared Ki-61.

[HighTone]

You missed what I was saying there, kiddo.

I didn't (and I think nobody has, thus far in the thread) say that preformance trumps skill. It can trump small and perhaps even moderate differences in skill; I mean the difference between good and bad is bigger than the difference between good and great. But its not going to let a noob beat a 10 year veteran, and I've never said that.

However, I did say that preformance isn't irrelvent. High-Tone would have his work cut out for him knocking my K4 down. I'm not gonna play his turny game, and his Ki-43 would simply lack the nessecary power to play the energy game with my 109, and thus I can dictate the terms of the fight. I would even go so far as to say that the power defecit of the Ki-43 is great enough that I could fight a bit of an energy catch-up game. And worst case scenario, even though I hate such moves, I could always go for a HO since one tater and he's scrap metal.

Yea...sounds good on paper doesn't it.

And I wouldn't even want the Ki43 to do that. I'll do it in a D3A.

The only two things your little K4 would be able to dictate in that fight is weather the fight begins and if it ends. To generate a shot on me your going to have to turn, at least some. Big swooping 500mph BnZ tactics will just leave you frustrated and out of WEP. And you can try as many HO shots as you would like, it's low class, but I won't complain.

Take the K4, I'll have you running back to your field ack in less than 3 minutes.

[Tank-Ace]

And thus you illustrate my point. I have no experience in turny birds to speak of; certinally not in anything that can even come close to turning with a D3A. Therefore I have to either fight your game and give up all advantages, or pick something I have VERY limted experience in.

So essentially you're turning it from a comparison of if preformance can trump moderate differences in skill, and turning it into one to see if someone who has extensive expirience in turny birds can beat someone who has virtually no expirince in turny birds...... at a turn fight. And nevermmind the fact that I haven't flown for close to a year.


Give me a month to fix my shooting, and we take the fight into 109's or 190's, the things I have experience in, and the result will be different. Hell, really the best comparison of what you're trying to do would be me challenging you to a GV match.

I have more experience than you do, and I know their strenghts and weaknesses in and out, while you seem to never have been that big into them, and I would guess have limited experience throughout your whole AH carreer, yet alone any recent experience.


Point being that you're attempting to stack the deck so to speak, to get a result that reflects favorably on your argment, regardless of if the results portray the real situation.

[Debrody]

Get a room you 2. lmao kids.

[HighTone]

And thus you illustrate my point. I have no experience in turny birds to speak of; certinally not in anything that can even come close to turning with a D3A. Therefore I have to either fight your game and give up all advantages, or pick something I have VERY limted experience in.

So essentially you're turning it from a comparison of if preformance can trump moderate differences in skill, and turning it into one to see if someone who has extensive expirience in turny birds can beat someone who has virtually no expirince in turny birds...... at a turn fight. And nevermmind the fact that I haven't flown for close to a year.


Give me a month to fix my shooting, and we take the fight into 109's or 190's, the things I have experience in, and the result will be different. Hell, really the best comparison of what you're trying to do would be me challenging you to a GV match.

I have more experience than you do, and I know their strenghts and weaknesses in and out, while you seem to never have been that big into them, and I would guess have limited experience throughout your whole AH carreer, yet alone any recent experience.


Point being that you're attempting to stack the deck so to speak, to get a result that reflects favorably on your argment, regardless of if the results portray the real situation.

I am not trying to stack the deck at all. Your whole argument was that HT should skip the Ki43 for now based on how you think it will fair in a dogfight in the LW MA.

I said success in a dogfight will depend more on the pilots skill than the overall preformace of his aircraft.


Thanks for agreeing and have good day. 

[Ack-Ack]

And thus you illustrate my point. I have no experience in turny birds to speak of; certinally not in anything that can even come close to turning with a D3A. Therefore I have to either fight your game and give up all advantages, or pick something I have VERY limted experience in.

The pilot in the Ki-43 doesn't need to force a turn fight against a faster plane like the Bf 109K-4.  All the Ki-43 driver needs to do is force the overshoot and get you on the reversal and if the Ki-43 driver is more experienced than the Bf 109K-4 driver, it makes it much easier to force the over shoot than to try and force a turn fight.


ack-ack

[Tank-Ace]

I am not trying to stack the deck at all. Your whole argument was that HT should skip the Ki43 for now based on how you think it will fair in a dogfight in the LW MA.

I said success in a dogfight will depend more on the pilots skill than the overall preformace of his aircraft.


Thanks for agreeing and have good day.  

No, what you're doing is setting it up so you can shout "Look, I beat someone who's been out of the game for 9 months in a fight where my planes advantages were worth more than his plane's advantages! That means the Ki-43 needz to beh added   !!"


The K4's advantages let it engage and disengage at will; in the typical MA enviornment, thats of far greater benefit than being able to out turn someone. However, in a 1v1, its not really usefull since you reall kind of have to engage. I can make a pass and then extend out of reach, but then thats not really a fight winning tactic.


But what you either don't understand, or ignore in an attempt to build up the Ki-43, is that 1v1's make up a minority of fights in the game, both MA and Special Event. The Ki-43 brings little to the table in a fight that the zeke doesn't already offer; its main point is historical significance.

The pilot in the Ki-43 doesn't need to force a turn fight against a faster plane like the Bf 109K-4.  All the Ki-43 driver needs to do is force the overshoot and get you on the reversal and if the Ki-43 driver is more experienced than the Bf 109K-4 driver, it makes it much easier to force the over shoot than to try and force a turn fight.


ack-ack

I don't think anyone is arguing that a well flown Ki-43 can beat a poorly flown K4 in a 1v1. But a well flown K4 is going to beat a well flown Ki-43 as little or less effort. Hell, a well flown D3A could beat a poorly flown Ki-43. But that doesn't mean the D3A has any real merit as a fighter.

If large differences in pilot skill is worth more than large differences in preformance in a 1v1 scenario is highly irrlevent in the MA's. Even if HighTone did get his Ki-43, he'd usually be fighting a 10v10, where the K4's ablity to disegnage at will would be of far more value.

And for another matter, we weren't talking about the Ki-43 vs the K4, we were talking about the D3A, which is even slower and probably worse in the roll department.

[Butcher]

I see an argument from High-tone an experienced dogfighter and some kid who argues all day long who never manages a few hundred kills a tour period, even when he played full time.

I'll take my money on HT.

[Torquila]

*sigh*

I say HighTone takes the d3a and Tank-ace takes a 110G2 and we see what happens, eh?

[mbailey]

I'll take my money on HT.

Yep 

[titanic3]

*sigh*

I say HighTone takes the d3a and Tank-ace takes a 110G2 and we see what happens, eh?

Whoever has better aim in the BB guns win.

[Torquila]

You guys are totally nuts; I wouldnt mind giving this a go as well; lulz.