506FG/457 FS P51D angled wing lines.

[bustr]

Personaly I just fly the skin for the neat green tail and shiny skin. I could never figure out what the lines were for. Guess they were really there to give the guys something to talk about during those long over water flights......

[FLS]

I can try, but it's still going be mostly textbook/lecture and less visual demonstration (see Earl's responce imediatley above, they sucked). 

If you think they're instruments or guages, and thus an acurate means of measuring, please (re)read my first post in this thread.

Or, do you just have a problem with being wrong?

What am I wrong about? Quote what I said that was incorrect. 

Nobody, including yourself, has explained how the stripes could be used for dive bombing. I doubt that you could make a film showing their proper usage unless you understand what it was. If you understand it then you can demonstrate it and explain it. If you can't explain it or demonstrate it then you don't understand it.

[Babalonian]

Listening/reading helps, your responce has again proven that - along with your continueing derogatory/attacking tone and interest to continue off-topic in a non-O'club forum.....  Anyways, keep mixing up glide/dive bombing as I tried first explaining in the first post I keep requesting you to re-read, and even chuck yeager wouldn't be able to help me explain it to you with a powerpoint presentation and sock puppets.

I did explain it, you expressed an opinion it was unlikely, without anything of reemblance to substantiation/explanantion/citation.... per your own words

If you understand it then you can demonstrate it and explain it. If you can't explain it or demonstrate it then you don't understand it.

How is my explanation unlikely, Mr. AH Trainer, sir?  The ball is still in your court.


If you want any more of my generosity with knowledge or citation (I was the first I believe in this entire thread, what have you contributed beyond speculation?) or in-game demonstration, I'd be glad to but I'm honestly afraid it would be a waste of both our times (as you wont even take two player's written words with provided documentation that these AoA indicators sucked, even in good practice with real pilots in real P-51Ds in real WWII wartime conditions/environments).

[FLS]

So you're saying those lines are AOA indicators for glide bombing?

[MUSTANGDRIVER51]

Thanks to all your guys for your comments and questions with regard to Angled dive angle lines on the top surface of the P-47, P-51, and P-38.
These were very useful to the pilot. However, to use them one needs to understand how they work IN CONJUNCTION WITH YOUR AIMING SIGHT when using bomb / rocket settings mechanism in the aircraft.

Check out the AF Manual 335-25. These were used and can still be used. Although with the earlier fighter aircraft such as WW!, WW2, and Korean Conflict.

Sincerely,
prior service pilot/ contract pilot S/C America

[bustr]

The lines are for angle of attack after flying level with the target just off the wing. The shallower the angle mark, the lower alt you have to be flying. Your entry speed at the lowest alt 2000ft flying level has to be around 250, and decreases up to 11,000ft to 210 for a 110 degree angle of attack.

The method is to fly level with the target in front of the wing as you look out and down at the target. When the target begins to pass under the wing and just touches the end of the angel line of which you want to dive at the target for your attack. You execute a shallow turn down and into the target to begin your run.

All of this is predicated on you knowing a chart of factors for alt and speed, which your armorer has set your gunsight accordingly for. And you have spent sufficient time on a gunnery and bombing range practicing.

Some of you may have noticed IL2 skins show three elliptical line patterns on the cowling in front of the pilot. The same principle applies except the idea is to fly level between 100, 200 or 300 meters above the target which corresponds to the lines. When the target just touched the line end down the cowling side, release your bombs. Probably good for vehicle convoys and troop lines.

[FLS]

When you say "angle of attack" what does that mean? I'm assuming it doesn't refer to the usual definition, i.e. the angle the air meets the wing relative to the chord line..

[bustr]

USAF term from 1950's gunnery manual where they finally explain how to use the lines on the wing. Seems the definition is fluid depending on the subject. Those numbers on the wing represent the angle of the attack the P51 or P47 would assume after dipping wing to the target and flying at it for a guns\bomb\rocket run. Aint military lingo literally confusing.....

The wing lines are used due to not enough room for the A1 bomb\rocket automatic aiming system in the P51 or P47 cockpit. In WW2 they were developed as a systematic way to insure repeatable outcomes.

[Chalenge]

When you say "angle of attack" what does that mean? I'm assuming it doesn't refer to the usual definition, i.e. the angle the air meets the wing relative to the chord line..

I have the manual bustr is referring to right here. I'm pretty sure I can reproduce this type of attack using those lines. The thing is after so much time in AH I don't believe that I need the lines.

Oh, and "angle of attack" in this case?

It is not the actual aerodynamic angle of attack, but is the angular measurement between the flight path of the aircraft at a certain speed and some reference line on the aircraft, that is, the level lugs line, the fuselage reference line, or the zero thrust line.

The guns are oriented to any one of these reference lines so that they will be at the proper or desired setting relative to the actual flight path of the aircraft.

The reason AH pilots should be able to do this after some experience is that experience is easier to come by, and you eventually learn or intuit the differences in angle-of-attack under the various g loadings, which differ from the 1-g condition.

[Puma44]

The only use I can imagine for those lines is formation flying. You can see the alignment in the flight pictures.

The lines had nothing to do with formation flying.  The alignment you can see is from well flown formation by the pilots.

[bustr]

The cactus skin in AH2 which is a PTO skin has 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 degree angles. That's for work 5000ft down to 1000ft entry point. Did the P51D even get used for ground work in the PTO other than strafing?

[Chalenge]

The Philippines had at least three squadrons of fighter-bombers equipped with P-51s, but the only accounts I have ever read were the recon squadrons out of Mindoro. I have seen evidence of a presence on Panay Island, Leyte, Luzon, . . . but never read of accounts from there. During Vietnam the Air Force and Navy both scoured the islands for bomb inventories, and they found a great deal in open storage. The event that led to the disaster involving Sen. McCain is a result of those storage methods.

So they had iron bombs, but what they used them for I would love to know.

[FLS]

The lines had nothing to do with formation flying.  The alignment you can see is from well flown formation by the pilots.

I get that, it was the only thing I can see that lines up with them unless you roll 180 which is what Bustr refer's to here. And apparently they use "angle of attack" to mean dive angle.

USAF term from 1950's gunnery manual where they finally explain how to use the lines on the wing. Seems the definition is fluid depending on the subject. Those numbers on the wing represent the angle of the attack the P51 or P47 would assume after dipping wing to the target and flying at it for a guns\bomb\rocket run. Aint military lingo literally confusing.....

The wing lines are used due to not enough room for the A1 bomb\rocket automatic aiming system in the P51 or P47 cockpit. In WW2 they were developed as a systematic way to insure repeatable outcomes.

[Chalenge]

I just did this offline. And it worked the first time without a hitch, or practice.

What you do is line up your approach so that your target is on the outermost marker, or 10 degree point. Then you start a standard rate turn into the target which you gradually increase the angle of bank while decreasing throttle, until the target is on your nose. The final step is to align the target with the lower marks indicated on the standard attack sight and to release at a proper altitude (calculated from the numbers given in the manual for minimum altitude recoveries, etc.).

I began from 4,500ft. above the target on the first attack, and 3,800 on the second attack. Both bombs hit within the kill radius of the bomb for the Tiger II tank.

[bustr]

The number of the angled line is your entry alt and +- angle of attack as you dive in.

10 - 1000ft
20
30
40
50 - 5000ft

For 10 your level speed will be about 250 level.
On up to 50 your speed would be slightly slower in steps to about 230-220.
Place the target left or right in front of your wing.
Fly level looking out on the wing until the appropriate line end touches the target.
Then begin a turn and dive towards your target holding a steady AoA at the target.
Use your reticle as appropriate for guns\bombs\rockets.

For a 70-110 degree attack, 7000 to 11,000ft. At 220-200 fly the target about up into the junction you can see looking down at your wing root. Our PTO P51D skin numbers by Korea were changed to 20, 35, 50, 70, 110 as a result of USAF extensive testing.

The USAF after WW2 took all of the popular methods that pilots developed in WW2 for entering into glide bombing\dive bombing\rocket\strafing and tested them. This method gave the most consistent and reproducible outcomes for high hit rates on targets.