Author Topic: A20 Tie Fighter Mystery  (Read 19468 times)

Offline cobia38

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: A20 Tie Fighter Mystery
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2012, 08:49:29 AM »
Hmm...Today if you're on, 2 or 3PM EST? I'll be the MA, PM me and I'll go if I'm not in the middle of a sortie.



  ok i should be free


  Harvesting taters,one  K4 at a time

Offline Bronk

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9044
Re: A20 Tie Fighter Mystery
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2012, 08:50:38 AM »
Hmm...who wants to duel, A20 vs any fighter plane?  :noid

Though something tells me A20 > P40, P39, P51 (in a turn fight), maybe Emil (assuming I can hit anything with those cannons  :uhoh).
Knowing who you are up against makes a huge diff. You have go train your mind that each ac you are up against is being flown by the best. Complacently is not your friend.
See Rule #4

Offline Rich52

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 868
Re: A20 Tie Fighter Mystery
« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2012, 08:54:20 AM »
Good thing we took the F3 view away from the IL2. It was truly a Monster of air to air combat.   :huh

Yes, your on "Ignore"

Offline titanic3

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4235
Re: A20 Tie Fighter Mystery
« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2012, 08:56:46 AM »
Knowing who you are up against makes a huge diff. You have go train your mind that each ac you are up against is being flown by the best. Complacently is not your friend.

I've been asking people to DA me almost everyday since I've started playing.  :) Trust me, I know. I've met pilots of all caliber.

  the game is concentrated on combat, not on shaking the screen.

semp

Offline cobia38

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: A20 Tie Fighter Mystery
« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2012, 09:00:58 AM »

 last time i was in DA  A-20 wasent available,  is it still this way ?
 if so we have to find a secluded area in MA 


  Harvesting taters,one  K4 at a time

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23868
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: A20 Tie Fighter Mystery
« Reply #50 on: July 07, 2012, 09:04:35 AM »
last time i was in DA  A-20 wasent available,  is it still this way ?
 if so we have to find a secluded area in MA 


Simply put up your own custom arena.
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline cobia38

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: A20 Tie Fighter Mystery
« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2012, 09:08:12 AM »

Simply put up your own custom arena.

 that would make sence,we can not have that  :furious


  Harvesting taters,one  K4 at a time

Offline JUGgler

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1269
Re: A20 Tie Fighter Mystery
« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2012, 09:20:38 AM »
Widewing,

What, in your opinion, stops a Bf110G, P-38J or L, P-47N or Mosquito VI from being as effective as the A-20G?  It seems that the performance edge goes rather drastically to the fighters, even with bomb and rocket racks cluttering up the airframes.

Noir,

Not sure.  I'd have to test it, but I do recall the A-20 being much larger than the Bf110.


Widewing will probably have the correct answer but I'd say the differnce is "lack of F3 view"


F3 view even during ground attack is far superior to cockpit view!




JUGgler
Army of Muppets

Offline JUGgler

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1269
Re: A20 Tie Fighter Mystery
« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2012, 09:22:38 AM »
Good thing we took the F3 view away from the IL2. It was truly a Monster of air to air combat.   :huh
(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)


The ridiculous advantages afforded by F3 view have nothing to do with "plane performances"  :aok

You have been around long enough to know this reality!



JUGgler
Army of Muppets

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23046
Re: A20 Tie Fighter Mystery
« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2012, 09:22:58 AM »

Widewing will probably have the correct answer but I'd say the differnce is "lack of F3 view"


F3 view even during ground attack is far superior to cockpit view!




JUGgler
If that is the case it seems that F3 view should be removed from the A-20G.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Citabria

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5149
Re: A20 Tie Fighter Mystery
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2012, 09:32:22 AM »
They don't roll well, but using rudder speeds up roll rate considerably, at the cost of E (adverse yaw).

this might be a typo but to clarify some aerodynamic stuff..

adverse yaw happens any time you move the ailerons and is countered by adding in rudder. by doing this you stay coordinated and retain more energy.

by not countering the effects of adverse yaw with the rudder you are flying uncoordinated and producing more drag.


.........


oh yeah disable the friggin external view in the a20. not just for its dogfighting exploits but the fact it carries 8 bombs and its the prefered bomb every vehicle into oblivion while killing enemy fighters overpowered dweeb mobile that eclipses the il2 external view tards.
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline cobia38

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: A20 Tie Fighter Mystery
« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2012, 09:38:59 AM »

  ohhh no !!! please dont remove F3, I wont be able to turn the plane or retain E any more  :cry
   


  Harvesting taters,one  K4 at a time

Offline The Fugitive

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17658
      • Fugi's Aces Help
Re: A20 Tie Fighter Mystery
« Reply #57 on: July 07, 2012, 09:43:37 AM »
Del tried dual throttles for his 38 and said that it had very little effect. He could do a better hammer head, but that was about it. The rest of the maneuvers didn't change enough with split controls to be worth it.

Offline JUGgler

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1269
Re: A20 Tie Fighter Mystery
« Reply #58 on: July 07, 2012, 09:51:47 AM »
If that is the case it seems that F3 view should be removed from the A-20G.


Not so sure removing it is the way to go. No use of any weapon or bomb from F3 view may be a start, I would also add a 2 second delay when switching from or to external view.

Then again, when F3 was removed from the IL2 it adversly affected "base defense" in my opinion. It was the only reasonable plane left to fight the vermin when the fighter hangars went down. Now the vermin have free reign :mad:

Anyway "F3" is a long standing debate in AH, there has been several ideas but the only one ever accepted was the one that supported the vermin!  IMHO


 :cheers:

 :bolt:




JUGgler
Army of Muppets

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8800
Re: A20 Tie Fighter Mystery
« Reply #59 on: July 07, 2012, 10:35:04 AM »

Widewing will probably have the correct answer but I'd say the differnce is "lack of F3 view"


F3 view even during ground attack is far superior to cockpit view!




JUGgler

Absolutely agree. F3 Allows you to see far better than any of the types Karnak listed. Granted, the very short vehicle icon range makes a big difference over what it used to be, but the advantage still means you don't have to bank left and right to watch for tell tale signs of enemy GVs.

A second advantage is eight 500 pound bombs... That's 8 opportunities to kill vehicles. 8 bombs on a town, etc. No fighter can kill as much armor as effectively in a single sortie, and we still have to consider the six .50 caliber MGs packed tightly into the nose. One quick pass will kill most lightly armored vehicles, largely due to the concentration of firepower.

The third advantage is the that the A-20 excels at dive bombing, due to outstanding low speed handling and virtually no nose bounce.

Let's compare the A-20 to other medium bombers...

Boston: An earlier version of Havoc (A-20C). Very similar speed and climb, actually turns better than the A-20. Carries only 4 bombs and has much lower forward firepower (four .303 MGs in nose). The Boston has fabric control surfaces, which are much less effective at speeds above 225 mph. To get a Boston turning at speeds above that, you will need to add a lot of up elevator trim. Juggler knows what I'm speaking about, he was one of those who liked to go dogfighting in the Boston.

B-25: Much heavier than the A-20. The C model is the more agile. Good bomb load and forward firepower, but the limited maneuverability, much less speed and climb make it far less survivable in a fighter-rich environment.

Ju 88: Good bomb load, decent agility. Much slower than the A-20, and pathetic climb in comparison. Nearly worthless firepower forward. An A-20 will literally fly circles around the Ju 88.

All of the above have the F3 option. All have multi-man aircrews. The A-20G has a 3 man crew, pilot and two gunners (the ventral gun is missing in the AH A-20 as they had no photos on which to model it at the time). The Boston has a four man crew. Both the B-25s and Ju-88 have four or more crew members. The A-20 is not afforded anything other bombers don't have. All bombers, single engine, twin engine and four engine have the F3 option, essential for any chance at survival in the MA. A lone pilot cannot effectively man a bomber without F3.

The IL-2 lost that option because was not being used nearly as much for ground attack as for field defense as a fighter against fighters. The 23mm cannons are extremely effective against aircraft, relying on the F3 view to pray and spray. You can still use it as a fighter, but now you are limited to using the gunner's position to see behind, which you can key-map or map to a joystick switch. The problem is that as soon as you switch to the gunner position, you lose the ability to maneuver. I disagree with this last change, feeling that limiting forward gun use to the cockpit view only would have been enough to limit the Stormovik scourge. I believe that the best solution is this: No forward shooting or bomb release if in F3 view. That will eliminate much of the gaminess associated with F3 use.

Castrating bombers by eliminating F3 would have a major adverse impact on game play. Isolating the A-20G for this treatment is solely based upon the fact that it is the best performing air to air bomber, and hence gets score of complaints from average (or lesser) players whose level of suckage is such that they can't cope with it in a fighter when the A-20 is flown my an expert. My advice is to improve your skills. Almost any fighter can beat the A-20 if the fighter's pilot has some basic ACM skills and adequate situational awareness.
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.