Author Topic: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%  (Read 11999 times)

Offline Widewing

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #255 on: July 29, 2012, 11:45:05 PM »

Although I disagree, assuming that's true, that would be the exception, not the rule.

What's the rule? I wasn't aware of a specific rule. Why do you think that 100 round magazines are not used by the military on M16s or M4s? Think about it for a bit. There's several reasons.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #256 on: July 29, 2012, 11:46:04 PM »
For those of you to young to remember, or even on earth at the time, we had a draconian magazine limit ban from 1994 to 2004. It included bans on assault weapon attachements and magazine of more then 5 rounds in them. Handguns were limited to 10 rounds. Assault weapons, so called, couldnt have bayonets on them, folding stocks, flash suppresors, pistol grips. Shotguns couldnt have more then 5 round magazines or attachments.

The effect on crime was zero. ZERO! I was there. I saw it. All it did was jam up otherwise honest working people cause the truth is crimes with assault rifles are so rare as to be almost nonexistant. Besides the gangsters had no problem getting high cap mags for their pistols anyways. Rifles, any and all rifles, make up for less % of gun murders then shotguns do. I work in the Murder capitol and we often go an entire year without ANY murder by assault rifle. And this is between 500 to 700 murders a year. And many thousands of shootings.

I never even owned a duty gun that holds more then 9 rounds of ammo.

That isn't accurate.  You could buy any of the large capacity magazines during that time, there just wasn't new production.  All it meant was all those millions of surplus mags in circulation went up in price.  You could still buy 'pre-ban' weapons that were in circulation or buy 'ban' weapons with the little changes the 'ban' required.  All that "Ban" did was drive prices up.  It had no bite to it at all.  It was pure window dressing.  It had no impact because it didn't do anything but help the gun manufacturers and sellers make more money.

My two ARs.  Top one is a "ban" time frame purchase.  Bottom one is a no-ban purchase.  Big deal I couldn't put a bayonet on the top one.  Haven't had much use for a bayonet.  The stock isn't collapsible on the top AR.  No flash supressor.   I actually like the look of the top one better.  In terms of what they can do, they are identical.



My oldest son liked AKs and their history.  The bottom one was built on a Polish kit during the 'ban'.  A bead weld kept the folding stock from working.  Another bead weld kept a bayonet from being attached.  Wanna know how long it took him to get those two bead welds off the day the 'ban' died?  about 2 minutes.    So please don't use any talk of a previous ban.  It was not a ban on anything.



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Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #257 on: July 29, 2012, 11:59:21 PM »
What's the rule? I wasn't aware of a specific rule. Why do you think that 100 round magazines are not used by the military on M16s or M4s? Think about it for a bit. There's several reasons.

I wasn't aware that the phrase, "exception, not the rule" implied a specific rule existed. I know you disagree with my position, but you don't have to find something wrong with every phrase I choose. The fact that the military chooses not to use extended capacity magazines lets on that they don't fit their interests as much as a standard-capacity 30 round magazine. That doesn't mean that the jams occur so frequently as to not constitute an exception. Cost and ease of production are also factors in that decision that wouldn't affect a mass murderer. And this is only dealing with the huge 100-round mags in the Aurora example. As I mentioned to Mick, the 33-round magazines for Glocks used in VT and Tucson would also be affected.

Offline 4Prop

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #258 on: July 30, 2012, 12:19:23 AM »
If a goat herder in Pakistan can figure out how to operate an AK-47, the typical criminal will figure it out. Load a magazine, cycle the bolt and shoot....

yeah thats very true. but the taliban are known for not being able to hit water if they were in the middle of the ocean. holding it sideways doesnt help it anymore either
Please tell me you're joking. Please?

uhh no

Offline Widewing

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #259 on: July 30, 2012, 12:22:21 AM »
Assault rifles aren't the only thing affected. Glocks with 33-round extended mags are a common choice.

A common choice for what? You can't easily conceal it with the mag in place. Besides, a 9mm pistol is a pipsqueak compared to almost any rifle.
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Widewing

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Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #260 on: July 30, 2012, 12:31:04 AM »
A common choice for what? You can't easily conceal it with the mag in place. Besides, a 9mm pistol is a pipsqueak compared to almost any rifle.

For shooting places up.

Offline Widewing

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #261 on: July 30, 2012, 12:38:47 AM »
I wasn't aware that the phrase, "exception, not the rule" implied a specific rule existed. I know you disagree with my position, but you don't have to find something wrong with every phrase I choose. The fact that the military chooses not to use extended capacity magazines lets on that they don't fit their interests as much as a standard-capacity 30 round magazine. That doesn't mean that the jams occur so frequently as to not constitute an exception. Cost and ease of production are also factors in that decision that wouldn't affect a mass murderer. And this is only dealing with the huge 100-round mags in the Aurora example. As I mentioned to Mick, the 33-round magazines for Glocks used in VT and Tucson would also be affected.

I'm not picking on you per se, but it is obvious that you have very little knowledge of these weapons.

The reasons the military does not utilize 100 round magazines are:
1) Too damn heavy to lug around. Any guy who is assigned the SAW will tell you that it's no fun carrying the SAW with a full belt of ammo. Lug around a Mk47 or worse, an M60, and you'll appreciate the light weight of an M4. MY G3 and CETME both have 20 round mags. Sure, you could design and manufacture 30 round mags, but that extra weight is unwanted.
2) That much weight unbalances the rifle, effecting accuracy.
3) If a 30 rd magazine fails to feed properly, you drop it and load another. No more than 30 rounds are lost. If a 100 round mag mis-feeds, nearly half or your basic ammo load is dropped.
4) The mags in question make it difficult to properly sling the weapon.

Another thing to consider... Slow aimed fire is far more effective than blasting away as fast as you can squeeze the trigger.

My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #262 on: July 30, 2012, 12:41:30 AM »
The military and mass murderers have different interests in mind when selecting weapons and accessories.

Offline VonMessa

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #263 on: July 30, 2012, 06:46:46 AM »
I'm not picking on you per se, but it is obvious that you have very little knowledge of these weapons.

The reasons the military does not utilize 100 round magazines are:
1) Too damn heavy to lug around. Any guy who is assigned the SAW will tell you that it's no fun carrying the SAW with a full belt of ammo. Lug around a Mk47 or worse, an M60, and you'll appreciate the light weight of an M4. MY G3 and CETME both have 20 round mags. Sure, you could design and manufacture 30 round mags, but that extra weight is unwanted.
2) That much weight unbalances the rifle, effecting accuracy.
3) If a 30 rd magazine fails to feed properly, you drop it and load another. No more than 30 rounds are lost. If a 100 round mag mis-feeds, nearly half or your basic ammo load is dropped.
4) The mags in question make it difficult to properly sling the weapon.

Another thing to consider... Slow aimed fire is far more effective than blasting away as fast as you can squeeze the trigger.



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Offline Mickthestick

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #264 on: July 30, 2012, 08:04:39 AM »
The military and mass murderers have different interests in mind when selecting weapons and accessories.

To a large extent, the interests of both of the aforementioned are very much the same. They both want to throw the most lead in a more or less controlled manner. We can argue the psychology of the soldier versus the psycho, but I think the point that you don't need a giant magazine to kill a lot of people is very valid. Banning beta mags, specifically will just cause your next mass murderer to defer to 30 round clips - which, in the hands of somebody with just a bit of discipline, will be more effective than the armchair commando's choice.

I also don't see much deterrent effect in 'limiting' a handgun user to just 17 rounds, down from 33.

But going back to your original point, I'm not against getting rid of these silly magazines. It's not going to change anything at all for practical shooters. Unfortunately, a practical shooter, by my definition, is a person who knows how to effectively exploit the capabilities of his weapon. What he does with those capabilities, be it self defense, hunting or shooting up a strip mall, is left to the whim of the operator.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 08:24:52 AM by Mickthestick »

Offline lambo31

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #265 on: July 30, 2012, 08:08:48 AM »
I just came across this article and immediately thought of this thread. I'm not familiar with the site, but I do live about 70 miles from Kenesaw, Ga and it's reputation for gun ownership requirements is talked about quite often.

http://politicaloutcast.com/2012/07/the-most-pro-gun-low-crime-city-in-the-united-states/


Lambo
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 08:11:54 AM by lambo31 »
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #266 on: July 30, 2012, 10:20:18 AM »
For shooting places up.

Never ever heard of one being used in a shooting. Not even once.
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Offline Maverick

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #267 on: July 30, 2012, 10:26:24 AM »
There is a rather popular saying about the definition of insanity. Something along the lines about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Tony is living proof that there are folks who never ever learn that lesson by trying to bring up the same failed ideas that didn't work time and again in the past. What's worse is he also typifies the truism that those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.....over and over and over and over again. Punishing the many for the act of the few is hardly logical or just.

Prohibition and bans have never worked in human history yet here it is again. The salvation of human kind, another ban or prohibition.  :rock  :rolleyes:

This is not and never has been an equipment problem. It has and continues to be a people behavioral problem, perhaps fueled by a cultural bias and mass media sensationalism in both popular entertainment and news.

Having attempted to make this clear on more than one post I regret that I was unable to impress on tony the futility of legislating morality on those who are never impressed by laws. Given that it is also futile to continue to attempt enlighten those who refuse to admit the possibility of light I have to say I'm not going to continue to do the same thing and expect a different response. To do so would make me as guilty as tony.  :bhead

I hope you learn to think for yourself, be responsible for your own actions and learn to respect the fact that others are responsible for their own actions rather than continue to try to mandate your opinion on them against their will....and better judgement. Freedom has a price and only those willing to accept it are ever going to remain free rather than submit to a master dictating their lives for them.
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Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #268 on: July 30, 2012, 11:28:37 AM »
Never ever heard of one being used in a shooting. Not even once.
Tucson is one. VT he used Glocks, but I'm not sure the mag size.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 11:44:01 AM by TonyJoey »

Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #269 on: July 30, 2012, 12:11:55 PM »
Just dug up this essay I wrote a couple years ago, where I used many of the exact same points you guys use to argue against an assault weapons ban. That doesn't mean my views haven't evolved enough to favor a much smaller gun control measure, but it's still pretty ironic.

                                                                                   Assault is a Behavior

   “No Free man shall ever be debarred of arms” – Thomas Jefferson. The controversial subject of gun control and more specifically semi-automatic weapons, more commonly referred to as “assault weapons”, has been debated for decades by politicians. Webster’s dictionary defines an assault weapon as “any of various semiautomatic or automatic rifles with large capacity magazines designed for military use.” Following in the footsteps of the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons ban, many politicians today are attempting to reinstate a similar plan. In my view, having the right to bear arms, assault weapons in this case, is a right given in the 2nd Amendment of our Constitution, a form of self-defense and sport, and not any more likely to cause murder or mayhem.
   The 2nd Amendment states that “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” This amendment was made by our Founding Fathers to ensure that the government never had a monopoly of force it could use to oppress the citizens. With many people owning weapons, no future tyrant would be able to impose his will on a helpless population as has happened many times in the past such as China and the Soviet Union. Once a government gains enough power to take away certain rights, there is no limit to what is possibly attainable. While banning assault weapons may not directly lead to a tyranny of any sort, it lays the seed for such oppression to thrive ten, fifty, or one hundred years from now.
   Many ban supporters claim that assault type weapons are simply unnecessary. However, what about the legitimate people who use them for self-defense, hunting, or sport shooting. Last time I checked, owning a 48” widescreen TV wasn’t very necessary either, when having a black-and white 12” TV would work just fine. The same could be said about having the latest cell-phone. Why do you need one when you could have a Maxwell Smart shoe-phone? The concepts of freedom and personal choice shouldn’t just be disregarded in the matter of gun control.
   Another argument brought up by pro-ban groups is that banning assault weapons will cause a reduction in violent crimes. Many cite a report done by the National Institute of Justice in 1999 on the impact of the 1994 Assault weapon ban saying that overall violent crime was reduced by an overall 9% between 1994 and 1995. What many fail to recognize is that the violent crime rate was already on a descending trend, with violent crime rate dropping about 5% between 1993 and 1994. This crime rate occurred in a time when assault weapons were on the market and were relatively easy to access. This mass banning of a certain product has been done before in the example of Prohibition, but that didn’t stop thousands from creating their own “homebrews.”  The bottom line is that if people want to commit a violent crime, there are plenty of illegal ways for criminals to gain access to assault weapons. National renowned publisher Alan Korwin summed it up pretty well when he said that “Assault is a type of behavior, not a type of hardware.”
   This hot topic has been argued for many years, and for good reason. Let's face it: assault weapons are deadly and were designed with the intention of killing people. But the reality of it is that most use them responsibly and for genuine reasons: they are a very effective form of self-defense and offer competitive opportunities in hunting and sport shooting. Not only that, but according to the 2nd Amendment of our Constitution, it is well within our rights as American citizens to bear arms, including assault weapons. It is for the aforementioned reasons that I believe that assault weapons should not be banned in the United States.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 12:18:50 PM by TonyJoey »