Author Topic: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%  (Read 11998 times)

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #270 on: July 30, 2012, 12:21:32 PM »
Tucson is one. VT he used Glocks, but I'm not sure the mag size.

Tucson when.... I'd like to see where a long long clip was used.
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Offline Sabre

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #271 on: July 30, 2012, 12:27:41 PM »
Regarding the ban of firearms on commercial airplanes, the situation is entirely different.  While possible sudden decompression certainly makes a firefight on a pressurized aircraft more dangerous (though not automatically catastrophic, as has been pointed out), that is not the real reason they've been banned (successfully) on airliners.  As has been demonstrated, this ban did not guarantee safer airtravel, since boxcutters were responsible for over 3,000 deaths on 9/11.  The airline gun ban has, aurguably been effective and reasonable, but ONLY because of the physical security measures that accompanied the law.  You see, it is immoral (and unconstitutional) to deny a person the ability to defend themselves, unless adequate measures are take to insure that those who won't voluntarily comply with the law (i.e. criminals/psychopaths) are likewise disadvantaged.  

In the case of airline travel, it has become very difficult in deed for someone to ilegally sneak a firearm on the plane, due to the multilayered physical security measures in place.  It is, however, very expensive to so so, and would be impractical but for the limited number of commericial airports in the country.  In the case of commercial businesses, limiting the lawful carry without cooresponding physical measures to prevent the unlawful carry is not just immoral, but in fact invites the evil doer to choose these spots for their crimes (who will stop them?).  But with many hundreds of thousands of commerical businesses, the cost of doing so would be astronomical.  Hence, there are no laws requiring businesses to ban guns.  This is perfectly fine, since patrons can choose not to enter a business, if they don't like the policy.

Case in point: Here in Colorado, it was until very recently against the law to conceal carry on University of Colorado campuses.  A suit was brought, where the plaintiffs argued that this policy created killing zones, since it deprived the law abiding a reasonable means to counter the criminal.  The CO supreme court (in a rare show of common sense, in my view) agreed with the plaintifs. They ordered the CSU regents to discontinue the ban on any building, UNLESS, every entrance to every facility on campus normally unlocked to the public had a working metal detector installed and manned anytime said access points were open.

The bottom line is, asside from the mag restriction already pummelled to death here (and historically, tried with little to no effect), I still haven't heard any other ideas.  Any time you ban anything, it represents a loss of liberty.  Sometimes that is deemed acceptable by the majority in society.  However, liberties give up have a tendency to never return (the ASW Ban being an acception, but only because it had a sunset clause included...otherwise it would never have passed).  Before any item or behavior is banned by government, it MUST be reasonably established that doing so will be effective.  Remember, what they ban today may be of no concern of yours, but what they ban tomorrow, using similar or even the exact same rationale, may be something very dear to your heart.  If you won't stand up to another's rights, what expectations should you have that others will stand up for yours?
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Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #272 on: July 30, 2012, 12:31:06 PM »
Shuff- The 2011 Tucson shooting, where US Representative Gabrielle Giffords was shot.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_04/b4212052185280.htm

"The Tucson gunman demonstrated those qualities all too vividly. Loughner is said to have emptied his 33-round clip in a minute or two, a feat requiring no special skill."


Offline Sabre

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #273 on: July 30, 2012, 12:34:53 PM »
TonyJoey, your willingness to repost your "Assault is a Behavior" article speaks well of your intellectual honesty.  That said, you must realize that all the arguments you make as to why banning so-called assault weapons, from a liberty viewpoint, apply equally to banning large-capacity mags for those same said weapons.
Sabre
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Offline jimson

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #274 on: July 30, 2012, 12:36:00 PM »
Just dug up this essay I wrote a couple years ago, where I used many of the exact same points you guys use to argue against an assault weapons ban. That doesn't mean my views haven't evolved enough to favor a much smaller gun control measure, but it's still pretty ironic.

                                                                                   Assault is a Behavior

   “No Free man shall ever be debarred of arms” – Thomas Jefferson. The controversial subject of gun control and more specifically semi-automatic weapons, more commonly referred to as “assault weapons”, has been debated for decades by politicians. Webster’s dictionary defines an assault weapon as “any of various semiautomatic or automatic rifles with large capacity magazines designed for military use.” Following in the footsteps of the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons ban, many politicians today are attempting to reinstate a similar plan. In my view, having the right to bear arms, assault weapons in this case, is a right given in the 2nd Amendment of our Constitution, a form of self-defense and sport, and not any more likely to cause murder or mayhem.
   The 2nd Amendment states that “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” This amendment was made by our Founding Fathers to ensure that the government never had a monopoly of force it could use to oppress the citizens. With many people owning weapons, no future tyrant would be able to impose his will on a helpless population as has happened many times in the past such as China and the Soviet Union. Once a government gains enough power to take away certain rights, there is no limit to what is possibly attainable. While banning assault weapons may not directly lead to a tyranny of any sort, it lays the seed for such oppression to thrive ten, fifty, or one hundred years from now.
   Many ban supporters claim that assault type weapons are simply unnecessary. However, what about the legitimate people who use them for self-defense, hunting, or sport shooting. Last time I checked, owning a 48” widescreen TV wasn’t very necessary either, when having a black-and white 12” TV would work just fine. The same could be said about having the latest cell-phone. Why do you need one when you could have a Maxwell Smart shoe-phone? The concepts of freedom and personal choice shouldn’t just be disregarded in the matter of gun control.
   Another argument brought up by pro-ban groups is that banning assault weapons will cause a reduction in violent crimes. Many cite a report done by the National Institute of Justice in 1999 on the impact of the 1994 Assault weapon ban saying that overall violent crime was reduced by an overall 9% between 1994 and 1995. What many fail to recognize is that the violent crime rate was already on a descending trend, with violent crime rate dropping about 5% between 1993 and 1994. This crime rate occurred in a time when assault weapons were on the market and were relatively easy to access. This mass banning of a certain product has been done before in the example of Prohibition, but that didn’t stop thousands from creating their own “homebrews.”  The bottom line is that if people want to commit a violent crime, there are plenty of illegal ways for criminals to gain access to assault weapons. National renowned publisher Alan Korwin summed it up pretty well when he said that “Assault is a type of behavior, not a type of hardware.”
   This hot topic has been argued for many years, and for good reason. Let's face it: assault weapons are deadly and were designed with the intention of killing people. But the reality of it is that most use them responsibly and for genuine reasons: they are a very effective form of self-defense and offer competitive opportunities in hunting and sport shooting. Not only that, but according to the 2nd Amendment of our Constitution, it is well within our rights as American citizens to bear arms, including assault weapons. It is for the aforementioned reasons that I believe that assault weapons should not be banned in the United States.


You haven't grown wiser with age I see LOL.

By the way, I met Alan Korwin and have a signed copy of one of his books.

Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #275 on: July 30, 2012, 12:37:09 PM »
You haven't grown wiser with age I see LOL.

I knew that was coming.  :rofl

Offline MarineUS

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #276 on: July 30, 2012, 12:41:48 PM »
I just came across this article and immediately thought of this thread. I'm not familiar with the site, but I do live about 70 miles from Kenesaw, Ga and it's reputation for gun ownership requirements is talked about quite often.

http://politicaloutcast.com/2012/07/the-most-pro-gun-low-crime-city-in-the-united-states/


Lambo

I mentioned this earlier. I'm not too far from Kennesaw which is why I brought it up then.

I've never felt safer than when I had to spend some time there when I had to make a trip back from Tennessee.


First off - to live in America, being psychotic is a requirement. ;)

Oh, those countries where religious extremist run everything isn't safe? I'm sorry. I didn't realize that affected my gun ownership.

Let me direct you all to a little town called Kennesaw, Georgia. It's a town where everyone who isn't a convicted felon/rapist etc. is required (more like asked) to own at least a hand gun. Guess what? One of the lowest crime rates in the world.

Why? Who in the hell wants to rob a house where there is someone who they KNOW has a gun?
Who would want to rob a car where they KNOW that it's owner has a gun?

It's a beautiful thing. You can call it dream land but I'll take my right to bear arms and beat you with it as I smile at a liberty that our European friends do not get to enjoy.
Like, ya know, when that thing that makes you move, it has pistons and things, When your thingamajigy is providing power, you do not hear other peoples thingamajig when they are providing power.

HiTech

Offline jimson

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #277 on: July 30, 2012, 12:54:44 PM »
I knew that was coming.  :rofl
Couldn't resist :devil

While I don't think it would do any good, I wouldn't really be that opposed to banning 100 round mags for rifles and 30 round mags for handguns, if there was a guarantee it would end there, but it never does, it's always just another incremental step.

You may have noticed Sarah Brady and her group didn't declare victory and disband after the Brady bill was signed.

"I'm convinced that we have to have federal legislation to build on. We're going to have to take one step at a time, and the first step is necessarily -- given the political realities -- going to be very modest. Of course, it's true that politicians will then go home and say, 'This is a great law. The problem is solved.' And it's also true that such statements will tend to defuse the gun-control issue for a time. So then we'll have to strengthen that law, and then again to strengthen that law, and maybe again and again. Right now, though, we'd be satisfied not with half a loaf but with a slice. Our ultimate goal -- total control of handguns in the United States -- is going to take time. My estimate is from seven to ten years. The problem is to slow down the increasing number of handguns sold in this country. The second problem is to get them all registered. And the final problem is to make the possession of *all* handguns and *all* handgun ammunition -- except for the military, policemen, licensed security guards, licensed sporting clubs, and licensed gun collectors -- totally illegal." Pete Shields, Chairman, Handgun Control Inc. "A Reporter At Large: Handguns", The New Yorker_, July 26, 1976, 57-58] (Note: Pete Shields was the founder of HCI and its first Chairman.)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 01:05:39 PM by jimson »

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #278 on: July 30, 2012, 01:29:39 PM »
Shuff- The 2011 Tucson shooting, where US Representative Gabrielle Giffords was shot.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_04/b4212052185280.htm

"The Tucson gunman demonstrated those qualities all too vividly. Loughner is said to have emptied his 33-round clip in a minute or two, a feat requiring no special skill."



That guy used multiple clips not one long clip.
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Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #279 on: July 30, 2012, 01:39:33 PM »
He used a Glock with a 33 round magazine, which you said you had never heard even once as being involved in a massacre.

Offline Jayhawk

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #280 on: July 30, 2012, 01:59:46 PM »
It has been cited multiple times that Loughner used a 33 round magazine.  Do you have some information that challenges that?
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #281 on: July 30, 2012, 03:00:17 PM »
He used a Glock with a 33 round magazine, which you said you had never heard even once as being involved in a massacre.
Never heard that he used a 33 round magazine. Must have been a lot of folks there not paying attention or minding their own business. Just like in aurora.

It amazes me that this guy was able to do what he did and no one even noticed him carrying the weapons.


In the theater incident I'm amazed someone there was not carrying... that is unless they were not because it is posted. In that case this mental midget was at least able to descern that he would be the only one armed. That would explain his relaxed state.

You would think that in that case the theater could be held partially responsible..... of course they could argue that you knew the rules and could have not entered the theater.
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Offline jimson

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #282 on: July 30, 2012, 03:16:17 PM »
Yeah, Loughner used an extended magazine. It was a well known fact here but I`m local.

Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #283 on: July 30, 2012, 05:12:24 PM »
Ok I think I've exhausted just about all of my arguments, but before I stop all together, let me just leave with a list of mass shootings that involved extended capacity magazines.

*Fort Hood-FN 5.7 with both standard 20-round magazines and 30-round extended magazines

*101 California street massacre-Tec-9 with 40 and 50-round extended mags.

*Tucson- Glock with 33-round extended magazine

*Aurora- Ar-15 with 100 round extended magazine

*Stockton school shooting- Ak-47 import with 75-round extended magazine.

*Hartford Distributors- 15 round Ruger SR-9. I'm under the understanding that 10 rounds is the standard capacity of the SR-9, so 15 would be extended.

Those are six mass shootings that I believe would have been positively affected by such a simple law as banning further sale of extended magazines. On the other hand, legal owners would not see any effect on hunting, collecting, or self-defense. Thanks for the lively debate.  Now time for someone else to suggest something and get put in the hot seat for a change.  :)

 :salute
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 05:15:01 PM by TonyJoey »

Offline 4Prop

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Re: Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%
« Reply #284 on: July 30, 2012, 05:24:32 PM »
Ok I think I've exhausted just about all of my arguments, but before I stop all together, let me just leave with a list of mass shootings that involved extended capacity magazines.

*Fort Hood-FN 5.7 with both standard 20-round magazines and 30-round extended magazines

*101 California street massacre-Tec-9 with 40 and 50-round extended mags.

*Tucson- Glock with 33-round extended magazine

*Aurora- Ar-15 with 100 round extended magazine

*Stockton school shooting- Ak-47 import with 75-round extended magazine.

*Hartford Distributors- 15 round Ruger SR-9. I'm under the understanding that 10 rounds is the standard capacity of the SR-9, so 15 would be extended.

Those are six mass shootings that I believe would have been positively affected by such a simple law as banning further sale of extended magazines. On the other hand, legal owners would not see any effect on hunting, collecting, or self-defense. Thanks for the lively debate.  Now time for someone else to suggest something and get put in the hot seat for a change.  :)

 :salute

North Hollywood bank robbery: suspects had multiple 75 round drum mags,multiple weapons with "Hi-Cap" mags. 0 dead. these guys had more fire power in the trunk of their car then all the above