410 Rounds disapere

[chris3]

moin

anyone notice that the range of the rounds of the 410 isn t much, i notice that at deacking a fild. i fired a a gunamplacment and the rounds fly straigt to the place but shortly infront of it thay disapear.
i knew that the range of the smal amunition is limited but it seams to me that these range is limited more at the 410 as to other aircraft.

maybe a bug? does anyone notice that too?

cu christian

[Scherf]

Yes, I notice something very similar. At longer ranges, I see plenty of flashes for 20mm and 13mm hits, nothing, absolutely nothing, from the MK 103s. It strikes me as strange since the ballistics of the 103s are so so good. My gunnery is teh suck, however teh level of teh suck seems to be inconsistent.

[chris3]

moin

i cant deack at long ranges with 20mm and 30mm it seems to me thay all disapeer.
and i dont mean more than 1,5 k with long range. there is something wrong i think.

cu christian

[bustr]

Ranges are pretty accurately modeled based on the Rechlin data tables. 3cm Minengeschoss rounds had a self distruct in the fuze that kicked in about 1200 yards so the equivalent of stick grenades were not scattered all over populated areas.

In game testing for Max effective range. This is the longest distance in yards the round will make a sprite on the offline target.

Gun----------Maxdist------dispersion
MG131 ------1040yd-------50ft dia.
MG151\20----940yd-------50ft dia.
MG103 ------1040yd-------50ft dia.
MG108 -------900yd-------60ft dia. <--- for comparison.

If you want to stand off and de-ack from 1.5k-2k use the BK5. The 410 manual for the MK103 shows 800m(875yd) as the maximum effective distance.

Because the MK103 patterns higher than the MG151\20 due to shooting flatter to 800m. I wonder if the twin MK103 fired from a seperate switch to save 20mm ammo when shooting at bombers from maximum effective range? No matter the convergence I set offline for the 20mm and 30mm, at 900 yards the 20mm patternd 40 feet below the MK103 rounds. The two cannon types had to be on different switches. The best combined patterning is at about 400yds and that would have gotten the 410 in real life killed by the B17 and B24 guns.

The ZFR4 gunsight that combined a telescope with the Revi16 was installed for the MK103 and BK5 to shoot bombers at long range. This would also indicate the MK103 fired from a seperate switch like the BK5 since the 20mm had more rounds and hit 40ft below the 30mm rounds at 900 yards. Reading the master wiring schematic from the 410 armerors manual the MK103 firing cricuits were not tied to the MG131 and MG151\20 circuits. They are routed through the same pre-wired Kit block for BK5 and MK103.

[Krusty]

Maximum effective range for bombers' .50cals was 150-200 yards. Maximum effective for fighters of any armament was 300 yards.


Maximum effective doesn't mean the round disappears.


I did notice something funny with the Mk.103s, though. I noticed it didn't SEEM like they were hitting, because I got maybe 1-2 fireballs out of a long solid burst on a B-17. However, the plane shed tons of parts so I think they were doing their work, but maybe the graphics weren't showing up?

Not sure...

[mtnman]

Rounds do eventually disappear in AH.  They don't just keep on going until they hit the ground.

It's been quite a while, but I believe HTC said the rounds will disappear after a certain amount of time passes (not range).  I forget how long it takes...

Anyway, rounds will travel farther at higher alt, because they slow down less (less air density modeled).

You can easily verify this by using the .target.  Fly on auto-level 1000 feet or so above sea level, and fire at the target at progressively longer distances, until you see that the rounds fail to make any marks on the target.  You'll see that they stop marking the target far before they would ever fall below the target.

Then climb up to 10-15K, and repeat the experiment.  You'll see that the range has increased with the extra altitude.

Since the "disappearance" is time-based, rounds that fly faster will continue to impact targets out at further ranges than will rounds that fly slower...

[Krusty]

I don't think we're disputing that part as much. I think the claim is they're disappearing shorter than other guns.

[Scherf]

^ this.

[mtnman]

I don't think we're disputing that part as much. I think the claim is they're disappearing shorter than other guns.

As they should.

They will disappear closer than some rounds, and further away than others.

All rounds disappear after the same time, but they don't all fly the same distance.  Cannon rounds will generally disappear at a shorter range than MG's.  It depends on velocity.

What range are they disappearing at?

[chris3]

moin

ah thanks for that explanation. now i understand the diverence. when i deack with my 190 or 109 i do have longer ranges because my birds a lidel bit faster. thats mades the diverence. wen i fly in my 410 and start shoting at the acks as i do wit my lidel birds the range is a lidel bit less and the rounds disappere something about 5 meters over the ack. thats realy not much but if you deack and you fire direct at a save target and go to the next you just surpricet that the first ack doesnt get down lol.

maybe the round fly time shoud be put up a bit because something about 1k range is realy not much for projektils like that.

cu christian

[bustr]

I think the gun selection for the MK103 as a bomber destroyer special weapon package like the BK5 should be tied to the same weapon selection function and fired alone like the BK5. The ZFR4 telescope gunsight was mounted with both packages to facilitate standoff aiming at bombers from 1000 meters. The telescope below the reflector gunsight was not for aiming the MG151\20 or MG131.

Both the 3cm and 5cm Minengeschoss had self destruct fuzes(mit Zerleger). The self destruct fuze was activated as the spin on the round slowed down past 1000m for the 3cm round at about 1200m. The 5cm round was effective to 2000m. The self destruct was probably engaged not far past that as the spin slowed. Otherwise these rounds would potentialy be dropping on civillian locations killing german citizens.

The MG151\20 cannot be made to pattern with the MK103 from 1000m as a standoff weapon. At 900yds the MG151\20 patterens 40 feet below the MK103. The 2 cm Flakvierling 38 from the Wirbelwind could because it fires at 900m\sec versus 720m\sec but, was not mounted in the Me410.

I know in the game we want to HO and de-ack with everything we have, the bigger the better. It made no sense to electricly trigger the 13mm and 20mm with the 3cm when the 3cm was used for standoff shooting of bombers outside of defensive gunner range with a specific long range telescope sight.

The MK103 fired at 380rpm versus the MG151\20 at 750rpm. By the time you fire off all 100 rounds per MK103 at 1000yds, you will have used up half your 20mm ammo missing your target by 40 feet low. In the game your 20mm will have dissapered into the matrix by 941yds. So you might as well sit on the runway and fire off most of your 20mm before going bomber hunting. The germans were not that stupid to place two guns on the same switch that cannot hit the same target at the intended engagement range.

[Scherf]

At some point or another I suppose I should try to work up a sight for the BK5, put a couple of bars on the standard sight for 1000m and 1500m.

This will require me to be organised. Might as well try to grow another head.

[bustr]

In this post I have a gunsight pac which has a Mil calibrated gunsight tool that will help you accomplish your impact point marks. Put it in the 410 and fly auto level and shoot at full zoom. You might want to set the arena time to (.time 01:00) The MK103 shoots to 1040yds. At 1041yds the rounds are absorbed by the matrix. I think the BK5 in the game shoots to about 2400yds which the impact point is 25Mil below center on your gunsight. To test it you will have to set your offline target pitch I think down to 358 or 357 becasue of the drop at that range. About 43m or 142ft.

It's called BoreSight and it's calibrated in Mil to assist you with the shot patterns at distance.

 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,337449.0.html

[bustr]

With the Boresight tool you can create something like this. The numbers are in 10Mil incraments. If you build your gunsights in 512x512 1Mil = 2Pixel.

Revi16d Modified with a Mil ramp for the Me410 BK5. 25Mil is about a 2000 yard shot. One of my my squad mates verified hitting a B17 at 2500 aiming with 25Mil elevation. This GIF is not scalable to a 512x512 bmp so that the 1Mil = 2Pixel. Most players today don't seem to like traditional reticle for their historic gunsights. They want things that are aimboty or starwarish.

Use the boresight tool on auto level and record your impact clouds at distance. Then remember that the Mil numbers from the boresight tool only work if you build a 512x512 bitmap gunsight. Remember whatever you name your gunsight:

(gunsight.bmp) make a (gunsight.mil) file with the number 256 in it.

Then Mil will display correctly in your gunsight. When yo make the (.mil) file start it as a (gunsight.mil.txt). After you save it then rename it to (gunsight.mil) The game seems to not be able to read a text file you save as (gunsight.mil)





This is what BoreSight.bmp looks like which I used to determine the shot patterns for the MK103 and BK5 offline.

[Scherf]

You rock man, thanks for all of that, sights and info.

I guess I'll lay off the 103s at very long ranges...

You wouldn't know, offhand, what the actual caroon distance is when the bad guy's icon changes from 1.5 to 1.0 would you?