Crash this weekend at my airport.

[colmbo]

if you've got an older model with 40 degrees, you can get yourself into a lot of trouble with those barn doors hanging down that low.

Not really.  You can get yourself into just as much trouble using no flap settings if you fail to use proper technique. 

[hitech]

It was. Guy lost power and ran through the fence on the south end.

Do you know when that was?

HiTech

[Tupac]

if you've got an older model with 40 degrees, you can get yourself into a lot of trouble with those barn doors hanging down that low.

I've got almost 600 hours in my 172 using full flaps almost all the time - it's got 40. The only thing I could see someone getting into trouble is if they get into an airport they can't get out of. That happened to the owners of the 172 before me but then they put the big engine on it and never had that problem again.

[CAP1]

I've got almost 600 hours in my 172 using full flaps almost all the time - it's got 40. The only thing I could see someone getting into trouble is if they get into an airport they can't get out of. That happened to the owners of the 172 before me but then they put the big engine on it and never had that problem again.

 i didn't say you would, but rather you could.

 

[CAP1]

Cap,

The neat thing about technique vs procedure is it allows for the million ways to skin the cat of operating an airplane safely. If you're changing configuration on short final I'd critique against changing anything when you're in that tight. If the difference between being okay and making it is between flaps 30 and 40 in a trainer then take it around and be on target for your next pass.  This is double super duper especially so for student pilots where one technique at a time is all they should have.

You were taught to do things the same way each time and that repetition is a good thing. On my first flight as an instructor I babysat a certificated private pilot on a cross country. Things went fine and we entered the pattern at the destination on the 45 which made life easy for him. Upon returning home we were told to report a 3 mile right base. He was lined up fine and when we were still outside the local D airspace he added 10 degrees of flaps. 6-7 miles from the field. I was curious so I asked why he did that. "I was taught to have flaps 10 when turning base and and add 20..." (here, 30 here, etc.  Hard to argue that logic but I asked if he wouldn't mind pulling the flaps up and trying it "this way" adding the flaps in the same distance from landing just in different points in space.  He was actually noticeably uncomfortable and I was scratching my head at this. Well he soldiered through, flew a successful approach and landing. When we got on the ground we chatted a bit about it and it turns out he never had flown or had been asked to fly a modified pattern at any point. Doing all his instruction at even a towered airport he only approached from the west or south when it came to the practice area and cross countries. His flying since passing his checkride had been more of the same. We talked about it a little more, he was excited and asked to fly some more with me going forward.

The point of the story is that repetition and a consistent technique are great training aids. In the real world there are times you'll want to amend that technique for any number of reasons and even though they way you may have even initially taught something doesn't mean it's the only way.

This isn't just toward you. Pilots have gotten into disagreements in airline and business jet cockpits alike over procedure vs technique.

understood sir.

 and flaps 7 miles out?

[Tupac]

i didn't say you would, but rather you could.

 

I'm just not sure what you meant. What makes them more able to get you in trouble?

[CAP1]

I'm just not sure what you meant. What makes them more able to get you in trouble?

those barn doors are pure drag at 40 degrees. you're gonna have to be on your game if anything happens unexpectedly.

[texasmom]

Even if you didn't know what 'hold short' meant (if that was what the sign said), I find it so hard to imagine crossing that close to the end of a ry that you don't look ~ if not anything else, just for the fascinating possibility that you may see a plane that close to you.

[Shuffler]

Even if you didn't know what 'hold short' meant (if that was what the sign said), I find it so hard to imagine crossing that close to the end of a ry that you don't look ~ if not anything else, just for the fascinating possibility that you may see a plane that close to you.

Well.... you know how women are


 

[Gwjr2]

I love the "we didn't pull in front of a plane" comment then the "yes you did" Looks like that road need to be moved or stop lights like this

[Golfer]

those barn doors are pure drag at 40 degrees. you're gonna have to be on your game if anything happens unexpectedly.

What, specifically makes it worse than 30 and why?

[CAP1]

What, specifically makes it worse than 30 and why?

 lets see if i can remember.

go arounds. not going to happen with 40 degrees of flaps out. those things are HUGE. at 40 degrees, they are pure drag. wonderful for short field landings, and/or when a steep approach is necessary.
 but if you have a missed approach, the airplane just doesn't have the power to climb out with 40 degrees of flaps hanging out. so now, you've got to kill carb heat, firewall the throttle, and reduce flap setting to 20 degrees, all in a second or two. it's a recipe for an NTSB report.

 i know later model 172's only have 30 degrees at maximum flaps, but i don't know why. i'd presume that safety is a big part of that reason.

[colmbo]

ALL of the single engine Cessna's I've flown (150, 152, 172, 177, 182, 206 and 208) will climb with full flaps.  My initial CFI had a habit of making you fly a pattern with full flaps.  Field elevation there was 1350', it was May and June in northwest Arkansas so density altitude was up there a bit.  The airplanes will do it, it just isn't a lot of fun.


The reduction to 30 degree max on the later 172s was in part due to the increase in certificated gross weight and the need to be able to climb with flaps out, part of the certification requirements IIRC.


****Edit.  Part 23.77 requires the aircraft to "be able to maintain a steady gradient of climb of at least 3.3%" using takeoff power, flaps in the landing position.

[Traveler]

Traveler, of what I know of Columbo, "calling him out" which I feel you may have just done, will not end well for your ego sir.

Don't get mad or even a bit irate at me, I speak from years of flying sims with Columbo sir.


And traveler, <S>

I was not calling anyone out.  I was questioning his statement on being trained to limite his flap setting to 10% for every approach except to short field.  My only comment was that if that was true, if a flight instructor taught him that flap settings are limited to 10% for a normal approach.  That instruction is incorrect. 

[Traveler]

I don't agree that my instruction was "wrong" -- See Golfers reply. 

If as you stated that you were taught to limit your flap setting for a normal approach to 10% flap settings, the FAA would say that instructor was wrong.