Fixing bombers

[Scotty55OEFVet]

The abilities of the bombers online versus fighters online is directly relative to the real world. I know this because I researched it quite thoroughly in coming up with the way I attack bombers (modifed 12 o'clock express is what B-29 gunners called the attack).

If a bomber is attacked properly (and by properly I mean with at least one wingman and by experienced fighter pilots) then it is exactly as pointed out already very easy to kill any bomber. If you attack one alone at high altitude then the bomber can easily out turn any fighter. So either way you need to demonstrate great patience. If you lack the experience then go look for easier targets.

Wish you would have posted this before my paragraph long rant lol...Amen brother! It took me a very long time to swallow my pride, kick my stubborness to the curb, and quit attacking buffs from the 6 "O" position thinking I could put more rounds into them before they got any lethal hits on me. Then, I somebody had mentioned to me attacking them from the 12 o'clock position and the rest is history. The only other method I may sometimes use is coming in from the high 3 or 9 position on a 45 degree dive and just laying into all 3 aircraftand then looping around and doing it from the other side. 

[Chalenge]

The most successful attack takes a lot of practice (experience) and patience but once you get it right then you will hardly ever get hit by the defensive guns. The reason I think you should have wingmen is because you really need to approach from at least 6k in front and I prefer a nice 10k separation so I can build speed on the way in. The wingmen sit out to either side of the bomber to prevent it from turning (attacking a turning bomber can mean three dead bombers in one pass). So after your pass you would climb out to the side of the bomber and let one of your wingmen go out in front. I do this with my wingmen but they seldom have the patience to go out as far as I do (there is a reason I go so far out: keep reading).

When you make your attack from high 12 the bomber is going to do one of four things.

1) He will remain level and man the guns.
2) He will zoom into your attack with a gunner defending.
3) He will dive and try to force you to compress.
4) He will turn.

If he remains level when you get to 1k you execute a constant rate (smooth) roll and then open fire at 500 yds (just as the range changes from 600 to 400) with the throttle back to about 80% (you should have more speed because of the long acceleration on the way in. Because of the speed involved the roll protects you from defensive guns and it is much easier to put your pipper on the bombers vector line. You exit laterally to avoid compression and defensive fire.

If he zooms you have a perfect shot at his cockpit but the risk of collision is higher. If you do not come in from directly off 12oc then it may spoil your shot. B29s will do this almost everytime once they get to 36k. Rather than the cockpit aim for the wings and when he pushes the nose down his tail may take damage too.

If he dives immediately pull the power back and attempt to rake his wings as you exit laterally. I have seen B29s shed all control surfaces trying to jump to the guns once they start taking fire. Its their fault for being gamey (yes I think this is gamey).

If he turns then turn opposite his turn and let your wingman at him.

A B29 at 36k is playing scared. He DOES NOT have the fuel to out run a Ta152 at that alt. Probably a November or Mike model jug has even more fuel. So if you are alone try to show even more patience and wait for him to lose altitude. This ALWAYS works but you have to give it a chance and not jump the gun. Remember: A B29 at low altitude cannot out maneuver a fighter. Below 13k it is very likely he will pull his own aircraft apart trying.

[Zoney]

The only thing that needs fixing is the way the OP attacks bombers.  Read Challenge's advice and then embrace it.  Have more patience than the bomber.  Don't fly with emotions, fly with the aircraft controls.  Stop trying to fix how others play and fix how you play.  Fix how you perceive the game.  Maybe next time you attack a set of buffs and you have skillifully dispatched the first 2, give the pilot a salute, tell him he is free to land his last aircraft and break off, you just might make a new friend.

[BnZs]

The only thing that needs fixing is the way the OP attacks bombers.  

The OP has more time flying and probably better gunnery skills than 9/10s of the player base.

In fact, here is what the stats for Late War tour 167 say about the OP's gunnery. Hit percentage and rank in hit percentage.
Kills Hit Percentage    11.19    86

BTW, the OP's k/d against B-24J in tour 167 was 39-0.

I think personal incompetence or inability to kill bombers may be thoroughly dismissed as a cause for the OP's concerns.

Now let's look at some other stats:

Most popular bomber's kills/deaths/ratio
B-24J    1347    3850    0.35

Looks terrible for the B-24J doesn't it? However, each player gets to control not one but 3 bombers in a formation. That means if we consider the single player-controlled formation as a unit vrs. the single player-controlled fighter as a unit, the B-24 box basically kills as often as it dies. And it makes sense to consider the box a unit, because loosing one or two drones doesn't mean the mission is over, anymore than loosing an aileron and/or a gun means a fighter pilot must return to the tower or that a jabo run is over.

 This is ignoring the fact that many bomber death are suicides from bomb and bail or bomb and auger. If we could filter those out, the effective k/d for bombers would be higher.

The B-17G box does even better:
B-17G    2610    6417    0.41

While to be fair the Lancaster box does worse. But hey, it is often *literally* used in drone-losing stuka-type maneuvers, now isn't it?
Lancaster III    2474    11851    0.21

Now, the fact that bomber boxes are killing as often as they die would be unimportant except for the fact that bombers essentially ARE the map movers. How hard they are to intercept in real terms has a real effect on game play. If we want buff piloting to be the main show in the MA, everything else to be kind of a sideshow, and escorting to be completely unnecessary (everyone who is honest about the game knows a box of B-planes is more dangerous to fight than a P-51), leave things as they are.

If there were any jabo aircraft that could reliably get to target and even fight off fighters otw to get there WITHOUT skinning its bombs, that killed as often as it died, AND which carried enough bomb load to shut down any base or wipe out a town, which sank CVs with a small percentage of its bombload, then the people poo-pooing the OP's concerns would likely be crying out for it to be perked, don't ya think? But change that to a bomber box and suddenly views change, for no reason that I can ascertain.

I see some of the most skilled players talking about how they kill bombers easily. Great, but that kind of goes along with a high degree of skill doesn't it? Skilled players kill everyone in everything easily. It could be argued they kill the average MA player in fighters with even less risk than they do buff formations. It kind of begs the question, should elite gunnery skills, a precise flight path, and a time-consuming setup you may not have time for if successful INTERCEPTION is your goal be required to shoot down freakin' bombers?

Lusche/Snailman is a skilled vet, no doubt one of the best buff hunters in the game. Being curious, I pulled his stats.

In late war tour 167, he had 135 kills of B-17G, and was killed by them 4 times. A k/d ratio of 33.75.  Impressive. He had 69 kills of B-24 and was killed by them 3 times. K/D of 23.  Impressive again, surely this demonstrates his high skill level, lethal aim, thought it also possibly demonstrates that the Ta-152, Tempest, Me-262, and Me-163 are better equipped for buff hunting than most of the other fighters in the game.

I'm also going to say that judging by remarks Snail himself has made on the forums, he has almost a talent for detecting large bomber missions in advance. I'm going to guess he rarely if ever accepts less than ideal bomber attack profiles against buffs upped with little warning in order to "save a base".

Of course, that tour Snail also killed Fw-190D9 thirteen times and was killed by it once. A k/d of 13, which to be fair is only about half his k/d against the B-17 and only about 2/3rds his k/d against the B-24. Still, it shows that some highly skilled player saying "I have a huge k/d ratio against bombers and they are easy kills" doesn't mean much, because almost everything is an easy kill for a highly skilled player.

But wait, there is more...if we consider that say, those 69 B-24s should really be divided by 3, because as I've pointed out a single-player controlled "box" should be considered a unit, then it becomes 23 "boxes" killed by Snail vs. 3 times such boxes have killed him. That brings the K/D for Snailman vs. the B-24 box to about 7.66. Still impressive on Snail's part, but it reveals a startling fact: You are probably going to die vs. Snailman  , but in tour 167, you had a chance almost twice as good of killing Snail by upping a B-24 box than by upping the Dora *fighter*.  But sure, this is normal, no need to take a look at anything  


  

[BnZs]

More stats!
In LW tour 167 the P-51D, killed the B-17 685 times and was killed by it 273 times. This works out to a K/d of 2.5. Okay, this seems to be clearly in the P-51's favor, although probably by a far lesser margin than anyone would have guessed.
 
But wait, let us apply the principle I explained earlier, and divide the 685 B-17s by 3 to arrive at 228 boxes, 228 units controlled by individual players. That means that in tour 167, 228 of these units, controlled by a single player were shot down by P-51s. Meanwhile, 273 P-51s, controlled by a single player, were shot down by single players controlling these B-17 units.


This means that in the world of the AH main in tour 167, on average the single player flying a B-17 BOMBER in a box was slightly more lethal to the single player in the P-51D FIGHTER than the other way around. Oh, and a P-51D carries what, about 2500 hundred pounds of ordinance? Whereas a *single* B-17 carries up to 6000 pounds of ord. But sure, everything is fine, change nothing...

(At least make the "big 3" of buffs ENY 5. The outnumbered side has much less to fear from a horde of P-51Ds than they have from the same number of players upping buffs and leveling their bases....)

[Karnak]

More stats!
In LW tour 167 the P-51D, killed the B-17 685 times and was killed by it 273 times. This works out to a K/d of 2.5. Okay, this seems to be clearly in the P-51's favor, although probably by a far lesser margin than anyone would have guessed.
 
But wait, let us apply the principle I explained earlier, and divide the 685 B-17s by 3 to arrive at 228 boxes, 228 units controlled by individual players. That means that in tour 167, 228 of these units, controlled by a single player were shot down by P-51s. Meanwhile, 273 P-51s, controlled by a single player, were shot down by single players controlling these B-17 units.


This means that in the world of the AH main in tour 167, on average the single player flying a B-17 BOMBER in a box was slightly more lethal to the single player in the P-51D FIGHTER than the other way around. Oh, and a P-51D carries what, about 2500 hundred pounds of ordinance? Whereas a *single* B-17 carries up to 6000 pounds of ord. But sure, everything is fine, change nothing...

(At least make the "big 3" of buffs ENY 5. The outnumbered side has much less to fear from a horde of P-51Ds than they have from the same number of players upping buffs and leveling their bases....)

Redo that with a fighter not armed with popguns that would have been discarded as ineffective had we been faced with defending against heavy bombers attacking in large numbers.

In other words, check cannon armed birds.  Preferably the fast German ones.

[BnZs]

In other words, check cannon armed birds.  Preferably the fast German ones.

We are talking about the MA, where interception most often must be done on the fly with whatever you've got. Thus I used the most popular fighter, which makes perfect sense.

Also, I have a concern because most German rides are disproportionately flown by Aces. Still, I'll take your challenge, using the D-9 (probably the most popular "fast German cannon ride in the LW MA"). From a quick glance it seems to have the most kills of such planes, with over seven thousand.

In tour 167 the D9 killed the B-17 463 times and was in turn killed by it 165 times. That works out to 2.8, only slighter better than the Pony with it's popguns, and the average skill level for D9 drivers is probably higher than that of the average for the Pony. Going with my treating boxes as a unit principle, 463/2=154 boxes controlled by single players being killed by the Dora and 165 Doras controlled by single players being killed by B-17s. Is that similar or different from what you expected?

[BnZs]

The second most popular "fast German cannon ride" in the MA, the 109K4, killed the B-17 234 times and was killed by it 128 times. 1.8.  234/3=78 boxes controlled by a single player. A box of B-17s controlled by one player was substantially more likely to kill a 109 K4 controlled by a single player than the other way around in tour 167.

[BnZs]

The 109 G14, with the capability to carry both a 30 mm cannon AND two 20 mm gondolas, killed the B-17 162 times. The B-17 killed it 55 times. K/D of 2.94, the best so far. This leads me to suspect that the G-14 is often being upped specifically for buff-hunting because of it's extra armament, and quite possibly by sticks who are better than the MA average. Still, if you divide 162/3 to arrive at 54 single-player controlled units, the B-17 slightly outfought the G-14 in tour 167.

[BnZs]

The P-47M is tough, heavily armed with .50s that are easier to hit with for most, and wicked fast.

In tour 167, the P-47M killed the B-17G 388 times and was killed by it 143 times. That gives us a K/D of 2.71, slightly above the Pony, slightly below the D9. Dividing by 3, 129 boxes of B-17s, again controlled by single players, fell to P-47Ms vs. 143 P-47Ms controlled by single players falling to B-17 boxes.

[BnZs]

Redo that with a fighter not armed with popguns that would have been discarded as ineffective had we been faced with defending against heavy bombers attacking in large numbers.

In other words, check cannon armed birds.  Preferably the fast German ones.

I think the P-51D may actually be an *above average* interceptor of buffs in the LW MA, at least according to statistics. The Spitfire XVI, also very popular and armed with .50s+Hizookas, had 231 kills of B-17s in 167 and was killed by B-17s 147 times. 1.57. So the Spixteen killed 77 boxes of B-17s an was killed by these boxes 147 times. Horrible.

 Now the P-51D is no doubt a little tougher and decidedly faster than the Spit, but OTOH the latter is more heavily armed and still substantially faster than a bomber.  I think the difference is that the P-51D is often hanging around at nose-bleed alts where it can set up a pass on any buffs it spots, whereas the Spixteen is often used for base defense and *actual interception* of formations, between the time they are detected and the time they drop their bombs. Which under MA conditions, is a Quixotic thing that many experienced players shun in favor of the (arguably easier and inarguably more fun) task of racking up a decent k/d fighter vs. fighter.

[BnZs]

Sure do.   It was on the assumption that formations would be gotten rid of as well.   

Sir, if I want 2 extra sets of guns to up with me to attack bombers, I have to manage to coordinate it with two other human players.

A buff pilot has to check a box in a hangar.

If I want to arrive in formation and make a decent coordinated gun pass on a bomber, I once again need human cooperation, I need all 3 of us to be skilled in formation flying and skilled in keeping our aircraft steady on a guns pass.

On the other hand, a buff pilot has to hit the "X" key. By doing so he gets a *perfectly* steady gun platform (in R/L buff gunners would have had minor turbulence disturbing their aim) which requires little skill to aim, with the all the concentrated firepower of his box at his disposal.

Look man, if your box of B-17s is formidable because you have 3 skillful pilots flying formation possibly backed by 3 skillful gunners, more power to you.  Or 6 B-17s in formation, whichever one works for you. That involves skill and is taking up the labor of 6 individuals.  Against 6 other individuals flying 6 fighters, I'd call that even.

But as it stands, those 6 individual players in the B-17s could conceivably bring the firepower and bomb load of up to18 B-17s in an attack. Opposed equally by 6 individual players in fighters, it is hardly even a contest-There is virtual certainty that enough of those buffs will get through with enough massive bomb overkill to shut down any base.

Under MA conditions, the current set up for buffs puts a disproportionate level of power in the hands of bomber pilots, making them the most important element of map moving, also making fighter escort irrelevant and interception Quixotic. This is the fact of it. If you think this is optimum for gameplay, fine, we will agree to disagree.

As I said earlier, at least make the Big 3 heavies ENY 5. Waves of buffs shutting down bases are a far bigger problem for the heavily outnumbered side on the map than P-51Ds and Spit16s, so said buffs should be among the first airplanes taken off the table for the high numbers side.

[caldera]

The heavy bombers should have lower ENY.  Encourage more medium bomber usage.  +1

Despite your extrapolations of statistics, bombers are no match for fighters.  All it takes is patience and the fighter pilot will win almost every time.

[Volron]

The heavy bombers should have lower ENY.  Encourage more medium bomber usage.  +1

Despite your extrapolations of statistics, bombers are no match for fighters.  All it takes is patience and the fighter pilot will win almost every time, unless 999000 is at the helm.  Then you effed.

FIXED

 

[Karnak]

The problem is that you are focused on the K/D ratio and are ignoring the gameplay aspect.  If you make bombers into singles and essentially free kills then why should you ever take a slow flying, slow climbing B-17G with 6,000lbs of bombs when you can take a P-38L or P-47N that have ~3,500-4,250lbs of destruction (not counting guns) and can do two, three or four sorties in the time the B-17G does one and are more likely to make it to the target?  Fewer level bombers means more suicide jabos.

Do you want to see bombers in the game or do you want that diversity eliminated?

Also consider new player retention.  New players frequently start out in bombers as they can participate and have some successes and useful contribution in them whereas if they are forced into fighters they are just killed over and over and over with little or no reward.