Author Topic: Fixing bombers  (Read 6225 times)

Offline surfinn

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Re: Fixing bombers
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2014, 07:06:00 AM »
I would like a message to pop up saying what guns on the bomber where killed when I attack it.

Offline BnZs

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Re: Fixing bombers
« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2014, 08:44:09 AM »
The bomber guys have a pretty tough gig in the MA.

Do they? Experience suggests that in the MA that the bomber will get through.

Of course, this has also been said about real life, but in real life it takes about ten men to control one such bomber, men you very likely to lose if the buffs are unescorted. In the MA, ten individuals can effectively fly 30 bombers to attack a base.

Meanwhile, 10 people defending get 10 single seat fighters, making the offense/defense balance ridiculously lopsided. And of course, strategically it costs nothing in the MA if most or all of those bombers are shot down eventually, as long as enough of them get their bombs off.

I think my suggestions would be easier to implement and do more to solve the problem than your throttle thing, but hey, I can't fault you for spitballing new approaches. Something needs to be done at any rate.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 09:12:29 AM by BnZs »
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Offline Wiley

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Re: Fixing bombers
« Reply #62 on: January 24, 2014, 09:47:23 AM »
There's really not too much difference. Both involve racking up a large k/d at the expense of time. A fighter pilot born with a boredom gene and simply out for fun will avoid the masochism of attacking bombers and simply play with other fighters, as large numbers of pilots in the MA do. A fighter pilot interested in the "war"/base defense/keeping the freakin' fight from being toolshedded out of existence will often end up making "bad" approaches, not out of stupidity but because taking the time to be smarter else means that the buffs will get their bombs off. If he is smart, he'll also ignore buffs that have already dropped because their RTB simply increases the amount of time it takes to bring back more bombs. Escorting and the fight for air superiority will continue to be an irrelevant sideshow as far as map moving goes, that will be decided mostly by the buff pilots on each side. All of that is not such a bad thing that it ruins the game, but it is not exactly a good thing either.

...What game are you playing?  Heavy fighter smash and grabs move far, far more mud than these unstoppable 30 buff formations you are imagining.

In my experience, it's a rare thing to see more than two sets of buffs headed in the same direction, let alone flying in formation.  Maybe once a night.  Sure, they will get to their target if you don't have alt on them and you only head out to attack them once they've broken the radar circle.  However, it is technically possible for defenders to fly outside of their radar circle, high, and engage bombers when they are further away from your base with a chance to kill them before they make their drops.  It does involve a bit of forethought, and sometimes you come up dry.  To me, that's gameplay.

Bluntly put, if you're flying a plane that is a decent bomber killer and you have alt on the buff when the fight starts, it is rare the bomber survives unless you make mistakes/he gets lucky.  If you waited too long to engage/got unlucky, that's just the way it happens sometimes.

The stats in the main reflect that very few people in the MA actually do this though, instead creeping from dead six making crappy attacks and dying a lot.  That's on them, it's not the game design's fault.  If you make it so the guy creeping from dead six has an equal chance against the buff, a decent attack will be completely unsurvivable.

Wiley.
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Offline LilMak

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Re: Fixing bombers
« Reply #63 on: January 24, 2014, 09:58:23 AM »
Do they? Experience suggests that in the MA that the bomber will get through.
Well considering me, a pilot of average skill, can kill them at a rate of about 20 to 1. I'd consider that a pretty tough gig. We want to have bomers in game and we shouldn't hamper them so bad that no one will fly them. We already have fleets of fighters wiping out bases and providing their own cap. If the bombers become much harder to defend they'll never leave the hangars. I'd like to see 1k bombs removed or perked for heavy fighters just to add more reasons to see attack aircraft used instead of the MA standard 30 Lightning/Pony auger missions that close bases now. But divebombing formations and lancstukas have always been an issue. Simplest solution to me seems to take away the ability for divebombing with a formation. The speed thing is less important and just a pet peev.
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Offline Wiley

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Re: Fixing bombers
« Reply #64 on: January 24, 2014, 10:19:41 AM »
Well considering me, a pilot of average skill, can kill them at a rate of about 20 to 1. I'd consider that a pretty tough gig.

You're pretty above average, Mak.  See Lusche's stats on what actually constitutes an 'average' MA player.

Back to the original point of the thread though, I think it would be pretty ok to have the gunners that aren't strapped in unable to fire for a few seconds after an extreme maneuver in a buff.  Some people really have riding the edge of plane performance and drone following down to an art form.

I rarely see the buffs doing anything too extreme, my personal nemesis is the shallow dive guys.  They get it up to max speed headed away from me and I find it really tough to get to them sometimes if they make their turns at the right times.

It's a bit gamey, but when you consider the way fighters stallfight with flaps and whatnot, that's not exactly how most altercations occurred IRL either.  We can do things in here that lack of dying when they screw up make worthwhile moves versus the real world.  Just the way it is.

Wiley.
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Offline Megalodon

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Re: Fixing bombers
« Reply #65 on: January 24, 2014, 10:45:15 AM »
See rule #4
« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 10:28:23 AM by hitech »
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Offline caldera

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Re: Fixing bombers
« Reply #66 on: January 24, 2014, 12:17:52 PM »
And in the time you do all this patient setup in the MA,  like as not the bomber formation renders the hangars of the base you are attempting to defend level. The MA is not a scenario, whether the bombers are destroyed by you or stagger back to base after getting their ords off is irrelevant to the ebb and flow of combat. In fact, destroying bombers on RTB simply increases the number of sorties per hour the bomber pilot can fly.

You are right about the MA not being a scenario.  It is an open sandbox to play any way you want.  There is no requirement to make suicidal attacks on bombers to protect your base.


You are trying to explain away the fact that the average a single player in a buff formation is in fact a match for the average single player in a fighter. It just doesn't work, anymore than claiming P-39>SpitXVI because you or or some other elite pilot kill spixteens regularly in P-39s works.

The reality of the MA is that large numbers of average fighter sticks will tell you that they avoid attacking buffs and stick with engaging other fighters because engaging buffs (piloted by players generally at least as "average") is so masochistic.

Behold the 2013 Kills Of/KilledBy stats of yours truly, versus some popular fighters:

109K4  37/26  -  1.37/1
F4U-1A  94/30  -  3.03/1
190D-9  75/28  -  2.58/1
La-7  70/30  -  2.25/1
N1K  58/14  -  3.86/1
P-38J  50/19  -  2.50/1
P-47M  55/21  -  2.50/1
P-51D  333/78  -  4.21/1
SpitXVI  85/44  -  1.88/1

Total  857/290  -  2.94/1


Above average, but hardly "leet".  Now compare those numbers to the K/D versus level bombers in 2013:

B-17  283/10  -  25.72/1
B-24  264/5  -  44.00/1
B-25C  49/0  -  49.00/1
B-26  100/15  -  16.66/1
B-29  4/0  -  4.00/1
Boston  27/0  -  27.00/1
G4M1  22/1  -  11.00/1
He-111  22/0  -  22.00/1
Ju-88  54/3  -  13.50/1
Ki-67  21/2  -  7.00/1
Lanc  628/8  -  69.70/1

Total  1474/34  -  42.11/1


There you have it.  Killing bombers much easier than killing fighters.  Unless I somehow got magically "skilled" only when attacking bombers.
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Offline earl1937

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Re: Fixing bombers
« Reply #67 on: January 24, 2014, 01:06:51 PM »
You're pretty above average, Mak.  See Lusche's stats on what actually constitutes an 'average' MA player.

Back to the original point of the thread though, I think it would be pretty ok to have the gunners that aren't strapped in unable to fire for a few seconds after an extreme maneuver in a buff.  Some people really have riding the edge of plane performance and drone following down to an art form.

I rarely see the buffs doing anything too extreme, my personal nemesis is the shallow dive guys.  They get it up to max speed headed away from me and I find it really tough to get to them sometimes if they make their turns at the right times.

It's a bit gamey, but when you consider the way fighters stallfight with flaps and whatnot, that's not exactly how most altercations occurred IRL either.  We can do things in here that lack of dying when they screw up make worthwhile moves versus the real world.  Just the way it is.

Wiley.
:airplane: You sir, have good point! The shallow dive in a B-17 is the best defense in that particular bomber, as it is the only one which will hold attitude by pressing shft + X, after getting the nose slightly below the horizon. Use of the throttle then to stay around 315 to 325 seems to be best speed in this attitude. I have been using this method just about every mission now and have been preaching to my squad mates about using this tatic.
I don't know what my stats would be, but I only die about 1 time out of 20 missions in the 17, when flying a solo mission. The B-24 will NOT hold attitude when pressing shft + X at all, so you are at the mercy of the escorting fighters and other bombers in formation.
I made a "wish" for Shift + A in this forum, so that I could hold a descending or climbing attitude and still be able to man guns, but guess that is not going to happen. When a bomber is climbing or descending in a turn is the attitude that the bomber is in to make the firing solution for fighters much harder. Sometimes you lose drones maneuvering away from fighter attack, if you bank over 30 degrees and it shouldn't be that way. The drones should act like they have a pilot at the controls, and if they did, they would follow the mother ship, no matter what the maneuver.
I have seen lanc's pull straight up, kick hard rudder, usually to the left and the drones stay right with the mother ship, a little behind, but they never blow up, which I do not understand at all. Mr.Crowly is the best lanc driver that I have seen doing this, killing a V base and de-acking.
The B-26 seems to be the worst at losing drones while maneuvering.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Fixing bombers
« Reply #68 on: January 24, 2014, 02:03:14 PM »
There you have it.  Killing bombers much easier than killing fighters.  Unless I somehow got magically "skilled" only when attacking bombers.

You're right.  Shooting down bombers is far easier than shooting down a fighter in this game, provided you know how to properly engage bombers.  Once you figure out what tactics to use, it's as easy as shooting down a C-47.

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Offline BnZs

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Re: Fixing bombers
« Reply #69 on: January 24, 2014, 04:13:59 PM »
...What game are you playing?  Heavy fighter smash and grabs move far, far more mud than these unstoppable 30 buff formations you are imagining.
You are talking about the advantages of surprise and overwhelming numbers, which things tend to guarantee success whether the equipment used is fighter, bomber, or vehicle. This truism is irrelevant to what I'm discussing, which is the unique amount of power buff boxes as modeled hand to an individual player vs. any other aircraft or vehicle.

I am going to use simplified numbers because reducing the variables serves to illuminate the point. Ten players decide to set out on a jabo raid flying P-47D-40s. IIRC, this aircraft can carry about 3,000 pounds of ord, giving this team of ten collective total of 30,000 pounds of ord that can be dropped on target.

If they are bounced at a typical intercept distance, say about a sector out, by a conveniently equal number of defenders, they are in real trouble because the ordinance has slowed their jabos down to the point that most LW fighters can catch, especially the ubiquitous P-51D. (Any average MA pilot will tell you that a fighter loaded down with ords, unlike a box of heavies, really IS generally an easy kill for the average pilot.)

To defend themselves, these P-47s have a total of 80 .50 caliber machine guns at their disposal, guns they must maneuver to bring to bear. And to maneuver for their lives means that they must almost certainly skin their ords. Mission busted right there.

To stop this attack, the defenders must manage to shoot down a total of 10 aircraft. Now the Jug is tough for a single-seat fighter, but nothing like one of the big heavies. If the defenders manage to force 9/10s of the Jugs to skin ords and/or shoot them down, then the surviving 1/10 can deliver about 3,000 pounds of ord to the defender's base.

Moreover, if most of the Jugs skin ords and go to fighting,a furball has broken out. If that doesn't make you  :D , maybe you should be playing some other game.

Now let's look at what happens if those same 10 attackers take B-17 formations....

The same 10 players who could only cart 30,000 pounds of ord in their Jugs will now be toting a whopping 180,000 pounds of ord. These same ten players, who were effectively helpless in their Jugs until they dumped the ordinance, will now 360 .50 cal machine guns which they CAN bring to bear effectively in their defense without ending or altering their bomb run one iota. The 10 defenders, which previously had to shoot down 10 single-seat fighters, will now have to instead shoot down 30 almost ludicrously tough bombers before they complete their bomb run. And in this case, if the fighters manage 90%, (an unlikely figure in their circumstances), 18,000 pounds of ord will still be dropped on their base. Enough to effectively toolshed the defense out of the fight. Yawnfest.

The numbers don't lie. The big heavies give an individual player almost ridiculous amount of strategic power vs. anything else.

 


The stats in the main reflect that very few people in the MA actually do this though, instead creeping from dead six making crappy attacks and dying a lot.  That's on them, it's not the game design's fault.  If you make it so the guy creeping from dead six has an equal chance against the buff, a decent attack will be completely unsurvivable.

Wiley.

The stats in the MA reflect that the average pilot in fighters is unlikely to prevent the equally average bomber pilot from completing his mission. You can cry "But if they were SKILLED..." all you want, but that doesn't really mean anything. There are players on this forum who can go into the MA and kill Spit16s flying P-39s and C205s all day long, but we still acknowledge that the Spit pilot has inherent advantages by virtue of the ride he's in. Sufficient skill overcomes huge inherent disadvantages.  This does not change the fact that in the current MA setup, average players doing buff offense have an enormous advantage over average players on the fighter defense side.
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Offline Wiley

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Re: Fixing bombers
« Reply #70 on: January 24, 2014, 04:41:31 PM »
The stats in the MA reflect that the average pilot in fighters is unlikely to prevent the equally average bomber pilot from completing his mission.

I don't think that means what you think it means though.  It's not inability, it's the fact that the vast majority of buffs come in higher than the average player climbs in a fighter.  Little to do with ability, more to do with desire.

Quote
You can cry "But if they were SKILLED..." all you want, but that doesn't really mean anything. There are players on this forum who can go into the MA and kill Spit16s flying P-39s and C205s all day long, but we still acknowledge that the Spit pilot has inherent advantages by virtue of the ride he's in. Sufficient skill overcomes huge inherent disadvantages.  This does not change the fact that in the current MA setup, average players doing buff offense have an enormous advantage over average players on the fighter defense side.

People who specifically up to go after buffs are a tiny minority in the game.  Fly into the average furball, 80% of the planes in it never get above 5k feet AGL.  80% of the buffs I see are above 10k, most at 20ish.

Wiley.
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Fixing bombers
« Reply #71 on: January 24, 2014, 04:55:26 PM »

The same 10 players who could only cart 30,000 pounds of ord in their Jugs will now be toting a whopping 180,000 pounds of ord. These same ten players, who were effectively helpless in their Jugs until they dumped the ordinance, will now 360 .50 cal machine guns which they CAN bring to bear effectively in their defense without ending or altering their bomb run one iota. The 10 defenders, which previously had to shoot down 10 single-seat fighters, will now have to instead shoot down 30 almost ludicrously tough bombers before they complete their bomb run. And in this case, if the fighters manage 90%, (an unlikely figure in their circumstances), 18,000 pounds of ord will still be dropped on their base. Enough to effectively toolshed the defense out of the fight. Yawnfest.

The numbers don't lie. The big heavies give an individual player almost ridiculous amount of strategic power vs. anything else.

 

Luckily that isn't how it plays out in the MAs. Very rarely do you see more than a PAIR of buff groups running together in any kind of formation to were those extra guns can cover each other. With out the boxes covering each other the buff groups become MUCH less a formidable tool. Singles and single boxes have already been pointed out by many easy prey to those with a bit of skill and patience.

I don't think they are as tuff as you make them out to be..... as they don't run in big groups covering each other. Should we see large groups of 10 bomber formations in a tight formation working together THEN you might have a leg to stand on.

Offline Karnak

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Re: Fixing bombers
« Reply #72 on: January 24, 2014, 05:09:18 PM »
You're entire point about the P-47s is rendered completely invalid as you ignore the single biggest strength the P-47s have, speed.  Because of their speed the initiative will be with them and they will have dropped their ordnance on their targets before the defenders are able to intercept them.

Look, bombers are a marginally useful in the game as it stands.  What do you propose their purpose should be if you make them free kills to any fighter regardless of that fighter's skill level?  You seem to be ignoring any and all negative consequences your desire would have.
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Offline Zoney

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Re: Fixing bombers
« Reply #73 on: January 24, 2014, 05:09:33 PM »
I don't think that means what you think it means though.  It's not inability, it's the fact that the vast majority of buffs come in higher than the average player climbs in a fighter.  Little to do with ability, more to do with desire.

People who specifically up to go after buffs are a tiny minority in the game.  Fly into the average furball, 80% of the planes in it never get above 5k feet AGL.  80% of the buffs I see are above 10k, most at 20ish.

Wiley.

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Offline Wiley

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Re: Fixing bombers
« Reply #74 on: January 24, 2014, 05:16:02 PM »
Who you calling tiny . . . . . . .

The oxygen deprivation inhibits their growth.  You're 4'2", aren't you? :D

Wiley.
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