new Tank destoryers......

[Eric19]

Why, why, oh why would you want this Eric, an m16 in this game can take out a Tiger2, so why do we need a new tank killer

because it would be cool hawk I want a 90mm gun lol need something to atleast have a chance of killing a tiger from the front

[WWhiskey]

because it would be cool hawk I want a 90mm gun lol need something to atleast have a chance of killing a tiger from the front

your missing all the fun   drive up behind the tiger 2 in your m-18  then ping it with your machine gun a bit  then,as he slowly painfully tries  to turn  towards you, knock out his turret fun fun

[Eric19]

your missing all the fun   drive up behind the tiger 2 in your m-18  then ping it with your machine gun a bit  then,as he slowly painfully tries  to turn  towards you, knock out his turret fun fun

LOL

[HawkerMKII]

because it would be cool hawk I want a 90mm gun lol need something to atleast have a chance of killing a tiger from the front

a m16 will kill a tiger 2 from the front, so will a m3. might want to ask to fix what we have before asking for new toys

[MK-84]

a m16 will kill a tiger 2 from the front, so will a m3. might want to ask to fix what we have before asking for new toys

     I would like to see some proof of an M16 firing at, and destroying a TigerII by hitting its frontal armor.  I can promise you will not be able to show this.
     Your turn, prove me wrong.

[Tank-Ace]

What really never happened?  Pershings going against heavy German tanks in the last months of the war? 

ack-ack

I think he means having a tank that can get up there, and slug things out with the Panthers and Tiger II's.



And people need to remember, there were a grand total of 4 guns in service with Allied or Soviet armored forces that were capable of penetrating the main frontal armor of a Tiger II at any real range. And at least two, maybe even 3 off them, needed special ammunition to do even that much.


100mm (only non-axis gun that almost all sources put as being able to penetrate a Tiger II's turret front with standard ammunition)

122mm (Depends on source. Either it was almost able to do so, or it could barely do so with standard ammunition.) Disregarding outliers that put it at 211mm with standard APC ammunition, most sources put it between 166mm and somewhere in the neighborhood of 190mm.

90mm. Needed HVAP.

17lber(/77mm?). Needed APDS (really inaccurate)


So, yeah. Theres no real chance of getting something that can truely slug things out with a Tiger II at long-range, since no such thing saw combat in WWII. The best 3 for that job would be the ISU-152 with its HE gun, the SU-100, and the M36 firing APCR.

Pershing is just a heavier version of the Panther, less agility at 25mph, armor wise wasn't any better then a panther or less. The Gun can knock out a Tiger tank under 1,000 yards easy with HVAP, otherwise its AP rounds wouldn't dent a Tiger/Panther.

Turret and side armor are a bit better. Biggest advantage over the Panther I can see it having is the .50cal. But its gun could kill a Tiger I from a bit over 2000m away on paper, maybe a tad under 2000m in reality. Basically, if the Tiger I can kill it, the Pershing could kill it.

The First M26 was knocked out by 2 direct hits from a 150mm Howitzer, disabling its turret and tracks, the tank was repaired and brought back into service.

I always heard it was a Nashorn that knocked out the first one. From the story I read, it fired into the Pershing at less than 500m from ambush. With the 88mm L/71, any square hit is an almost guaranteed penetration at that range.

[Ack-Ack]

Here's the problem, I've read the same account in half a dozen articles - it isn't known if it was a Tiger or King Tiger - what reports I have read states its a Tiger tank that was knocked at 1,200 yards. A couple of things need to be taken into account first... Look at the time stamp,
the German army was pretty much destroyed, no veteran crews left - and tanks were designed pretty poor since late 1944.

It was one engagement, one tank on one - there is no eye witness to this, and its incredibly hard to give a judgement on this engagement. I read this same article 10 years ago, if you search the forums you will find the same link to the super pershing used a dozen times.

I wouldn't say 1 thing on the wishlist forum unless I actually researched the hell out of it, for example all my info comes from Osprey Vangards M-26/46 Pershing.

It is known that it was a Tiger II, what is not known if it was the Tiger II or some other anti-tank weapon that hit the turret of the Super Pershing, but make no mistake about it, a Super Pershing killed a Tiger II at Dessau. There were plenty of witnesses as well, as the Super Pershings were moving along with the infantry through Dessau. 

Sources: Spearhead in the West (1946 edition); the book Death Traps by Belton Cooper; and the book Another River, Another Town and personal writings by John P. Irwin (gunner in the Super Pershing).

Then there is this video of an engagement between a regular Pershing against a Panther tank during the Battle of Cologne.

M26 Pershing vs. Panther tank - Battle of Cologne

Here is a picture of the dead Panther.


From another angle


ack-ack

[Rino]

      It doesn't matter, Butcher has his mind made up.  He can't be bothered with factual evidence, his beloved Tiger II cannot be
destroyed by mere mortals 

[Tank-Ace]

      It doesn't matter, Butcher has his mind made up.  He can't be bothered with factual evidence, his beloved Tiger II cannot be
destroyed by mere mortals 

Hardly, theres an entire thread of him talking about how it would be possible for the IS-2 to knock them out at beyond 2000m range  .

[Butcher]

     It doesn't matter, Butcher has his mind made up.  He can't be bothered with factual evidence, his beloved Tiger II cannot be
destroyed by mere mortals  

umm, hey kid - I go by facts you know *researching* more then just wikipedia - if you been around long enough you'd know I go by factual information other then what wikipedia tells you.
Fact is I have no interest in the Tiger 2, and I only drove the Tiger 2 maybe 5 times since It came out. So how did I make up my mind again kiddo?

if Ack-Ack comments on it I know I can trust his judgement, however for the past 5 years? the SAME 3rd armored URL gets brought into every forum post on the "Super Pershing", only ONE source.... Hey just like Wikipedia.

I prefer having some cross-references material to make sure everything is accurate as possible.
Ack-ack, never read anything by John Irwin - one of those few books I haven't gotten around to finding yet.

Hardly, theres an entire thread of him talking about how it would be possible for the IS-2 to knock them out at beyond 2000m range  .

And I showed sourced information where you simply still believe no tank can be knocked out by a HE round period any range. In your mind its A) a King Tiger and B) HE round, nope no HE round ever disabled a tank period.

Lets forget simpler things like a PTRD Anti Tank rifle at Kursk disabling a Tiger tank. Your logic? ZOMG 14mm Anti tank gun cannot disable a Tiger, in fact one did - killing the driver causing the crew to bail out.

[Tank-Ace]

And I showed sourced information where you simply still believe no tank can be knocked out by a HE round period any range. In your mind its A) a King Tiger and B) HE round, nope no HE round ever disabled a tank period.

OK, so completely wrong on both points. A) it was skepticism about IS-2's ability to beat the Tiger II's in a gun duel at extended ranges (more specifically, its ability to hit said tiger II at extended range before the Tiger II hits it); a fight which favors the Tiger II in every way. And B) in your mind, a hit with an HE shell is a guaranteed kill of the tank, while it the hardened steel penetrator of the Pz.Gr. 39/43 round was liable to just bounce off of the IS-2 at such ranges.

The weakness of the Tiger II was its in its flanks, and its mobility, not its front. I have no great love of the Tiger II; my favorite tank is still the Panther. I'm simply better able to recognize the fact that no tank we get in Aces High will be able to slug things out with a Tiger II unless HTC either gives the US 90mm APCR rounds, the 17lber APDS, or reworks the HE mechanics to allow HE shells to damage tanks.

Lets forget simpler things like a PTRD Anti Tank rifle at Kursk disabling a Tiger tank. Your logic? ZOMG 14mm Anti tank gun cannot disable a Tiger, in fact one did - killing the driver causing the crew to bail out.

Disabled vs destroyed.  To me, just disabling the tank isn't any great accomplishment, and doesn't say much about a tank's strenght or weaknesses, since you can "disable" an M4 as easily as you can disable a Tiger II, and as easily as you can disable a T-34.

Hell, you could disable a tank with a .17cal if you got lucky. Just happen to hit the driver in the eye, and the tank is as disabled as it would be if you had shot the driver with a 14mm round, or even somehow killed the driver with a 155mm while doing no damage to the tank or other crew members.

[Scotty55OEFVet]

     I would like to see some proof of an M16 firing at, and destroying a TigerII by hitting its frontal armor.  I can promise you will not be able to show this.
     Your turn, prove me wrong.

  Forget the M15, lol...I wanna see proof that an M3 can knock out a King Tiger by hitting it in its frontal armor!

[Eric19]

Forget the M15, lol...I wanna see proof that an M3 can knock out a King Tiger by hitting it in its frontal armor!

first day it came out I in my little M3 with the 75MM gun shot and killed a tigger2 from 600 yds out with one shot and then I outta there lol

[MK-84]

Forget the M15, lol...I wanna see proof that an M3 can knock out a King Tiger by hitting it in its frontal armor!

     From the front according to AH statistics that isn't going to happen. An M3 at 0yrds has a penetration of 91mm and at 1000yrds 80mm.  The TigerII's weakest frontal armor is the lower hull at 100mm which additionally is angled.  Vision ports,other weak areas? Perhaps, but does AH model this?  Even if it did, that is extremely unlikely.  And the idea of an M16 destroying a TigerII from the front is laughable to the point of being ridiculous.
    The side and rear armor are an entirely different matter however, and yes an m3/75 can absolutley knock out a TigerII.

[Rino]

umm, hey kid - I go by facts you know *researching* more then just wikipedia - if you been around long enough you'd know I go by factual information other then what wikipedia tells you.
Fact is I have no interest in the Tiger 2, and I only drove the Tiger 2 maybe 5 times since It came out. So how did I make up my mind again kiddo?

if Ack-Ack comments on it I know I can trust his judgement, however for the past 5 years? the SAME 3rd armored URL gets brought into every forum post on the "Super Pershing", only ONE source.... Hey just like Wikipedia.

I prefer having some cross-references material to make sure everything is accurate as possible.
Ack-ack, never read anything by John Irwin - one of those few books I haven't gotten around to finding yet.

And I showed sourced information where you simply still believe no tank can be knocked out by a HE round period any range. In your mind its A) a King Tiger and B) HE round, nope no HE round ever disabled a tank period.

Lets forget simpler things like a PTRD Anti Tank rifle at Kursk disabling a Tiger tank. Your logic? ZOMG 14mm Anti tank gun cannot disable a Tiger, in fact one did - killing the driver causing the crew to bail out.

     Hmmm, well since I'm just a kid I guess I should bow to your vast and infallible knowledge.  After all your second or third hand information
MUST be more accurate than mine.  Of course you have absolutely no clue where I get my information, so it might be a bit problematical to
prove that opinion.

     I also don't spend alot of my time obsessing over the virtual minutiae of virtual armor thicknesses and angles in a ground combat game
that in no way resembles actual armored combat.  GVing can be fun, but it's just a game.  I have no idea how smart you are, but I know
how smart you sound.