Kills of P51s

[ink]

Well if putting your nose down and running is "not fighting" what is putting your nose up and climbing when you're flying a k4 or anything else that outclimbs its opponent?

I'm not directing this at you in particular.

Just because there is not the same separation, a k4 who can only use its climb to take the advantage is doing the exact same thing. It's just running a different direction. Only the k4, doesnt leave he uses that advantage. The pony has a harder task re-engaging if he can't get the alt advantage.

Bottom line is, each plane has strengths and weaknesses and if a pony driver will take the chance to engage in a turn fight until he doesnt have the energy to maintain the fight on at least an even keel, then he deserves every bit as much respect as any other type of flyer in the game. No one regardless of what they fly will ALWAYS fly their ride outside of it's envelope when they are guaranteed to lose if they do.

I gather you fly the Ki84, I bet you don't stay engaged in turn fights with an equal pilot flying zekes or brews. There's no way you could unless you run or die. So why should a pony continue to try and out turn a Ki84?

you would lose that bet.
 

1-I never disengage from a fight once I start no matter what I am up against or how many...the only time I do disengage I am bingo ammo/fuel or have to avoid the nme's friends and merge with the other nme....FACT

2-Using your planes strengths against your nme is a good thing..... I don't care if a 51 BnZ's the crap outta me as long as he tries to actually fight, I never said one must be in a "turn" fight to be fighting......

people just don't like being called out on their lame game play, and I am not sorry but I will always call it the way I see it....if you are in a 51....190..ECT ECT..and all you can do is a couple lame no maneuver HO passes climb 5k away and come back and HO with no maneuvers......your game play is lame...

and there is big difference in a K4 using his climb to rope a guy..... then a 51(or any speed demon) running to ACK or friends as soon as he loses advantage...if you cant see the difference in that....well then I have no more to say to you.....for you are lost already.

and just a bit of advice...........before you make a "bet" you should know what you are betting against.

[Noir]

Nathan, what happens to the P-51 versus the Ki-84 (for example), happens to the Ki-84 versus the Brewster, the Zero, the Hurricane, the F4F, most of the Spitfires and so on. The reason I stick around once my advantages are lost is because it is hard.

I disagree there, isn't a sure death by turning the easy way out, while you could have gone to bnz mode and try to survive on another characteristic of your airframe?

My perspective is that the die hard people are taking the easy way out, draped in their suicidal glory 

[Debrody]

I would not get into an arguement about what is easyer, picking down from 20k with many buddies then centering the stick in the fastest plane or dodging 3-4 cons at once and killing them one after one...
But if hitting the wep button and flying straight is hard enough for you... its your choice after all 

[nrshida]

I disagree there, isn't a sure death by turning the easy way out,

I've never really thought about it that way, but I am certainly not looking for a martyr's death to escape damage to the ego if that is what you are suggesting. If I find myself in a fight with a coupe of turny planes or any combination of planes I just go balls deep and try to fight as hard as I can. It isn't realistic to expect to win or even survive (although you sometimes do), but I'll make sure they have to earn it. Actually mostly the funniest part is watching them fall over each other to be the one to get the 'kill', or even funnier as you whittle down the numbers watching the ones that remain trying to decide whether to leave or not.

As I have said I appreciate that you, for instance, have different motivations for playing this game. I wonder why it inevitably comes down to destroying the other faction's standpoint though.

[LCADolby]

What I think I learned from this thread;

Whether you run or die, your taking the easy way out.

 

[Ripley]

you would lose that bet.
 

1-I never disengage from a fight once I start no matter what I am up against or how many...the only time I do disengage I am bingo ammo/fuel or have to avoid the nme's friends and merge with the other nme....FACT

2-Using your planes strengths against your nme is a good thing..... I don't care if a 51 BnZ's the crap outta me as long as he tries to actually fight, I never said one must be in a "turn" fight to be fighting......

people just don't like being called out on their lame game play, and I am not sorry but I will always call it the way I see it....if you are in a 51....190..ECT ECT..and all you can do is a couple lame no maneuver HO passes climb 5k away and come back and HO with no maneuvers......your game play is lame...

and there is big difference in a K4 using his climb to rope a guy..... then a 51(or any speed demon) running to ACK or friends as soon as he loses advantage...if you cant see the difference in that....well then I have no more to say to you.....for you are lost already.

and just a bit of advice...........before you make a "bet" you should know what you are betting against.

With Respect Ink,

I just wanted to get my opinion in here. I realize that the post that was quoted before this said "nose down and run to ack/friends", but take that "run to ack/friends" out and putting the nose down in a 51 and disengaging from a turn fight that they are starting to lose is actually a tactic. You are using a strength of that plane to dive away, get some distance and speed, and re-engage in a fight that's hopefully a little more in the 51's favor. It's, like you said, when people take advantage of that and hit the deck doing 500mph headed for home that it fails to be a tactic.

[Noir]

Far from me the urge to judge the other players play style   Everyone is finding is own fun, that's the beauty and sandbox like games  

[tunnelrat]

If you leave icon range and come back, in a 1v1, or even worse, in a 2+ v 1, you're a turd.

I will agree with that.

[nrshida]

 I used to love fighting with you in the DA over the lake. Was always fun

Just noticed this! Yours was the first P-51D I ever fought where I realised they could do much more than go fast in straight lines!  

Always a challenge and a pleasure fighting you Uptown  

[kappa]

What about those darn RGPs that run in circles?  

[ink]

With Respect Ink,

I just wanted to get my opinion in here. I realize that the post that was quoted before this said "nose down and run to ack/friends", but take that "run to ack/friends" out and putting the nose down in a 51 and disengaging from a turn fight that they are starting to lose is actually a tactic. You are using a strength of that plane to dive away, get some distance and speed, and re-engage in a fight that's hopefully a little more in the 51's favor. It's, like you said, when people take advantage of that and hit the deck doing 500mph headed for home that it fails to be a tactic.

yup if he is trying to get ALT or a better position to attack, absolutely more power to them, I do enjoy a good BnZ vs turny bird fight especially if the guy is aggressive.....with equal pilots in there perspective rides it will most often be a draw.......

my point is...if you are gonna run and then call it "fighting" you need to get a clue.

and don't expect me and others like me...... to pat you on the back for lame game play.

What about those darn RGPs that run in circles?  

 

EDITed out some stuff...damn thought I was in another thread 

[Nathan60]

Ink if its all about the fight, making them run should be a victory to you,  you shouldn't have to get a k in the column just to be satisfied.  Needing that kill some would call scoreherding. Im not talklking about the one and done guiys  Im talking about someone that comes down and gives it a go. Forcing them to break out  and boogie should be its own reward if it truely was 'all about the fight'

[ink]

Ink if its all about the fight, making them run should be a victory to you,  you shouldn't have to get a k in the column just to be satisfied.  Needing that kill some would call scoreherding. Im not talklking about the one and done guiys  Im talking about someone that comes down and gives it a go. Forcing them to break out  and boogie should be its own reward if it truely was 'all about the fight'

it is....that don't mean I cant laugh at them when they call running "combat"

if they at least tried and realized it wasnt gonna happen then leave, and dont try to pick shortly after....I have no problem with at all.....hell I don't care how anyone flies but I do love this game and try to show people where the most adrenaline pumpin fun is to be had....it certainly aint nosing down and running as soon as you loose advantage.....

every fight I go into I have full intention of living through.... I fight my arse off every sortie......and then tards who nose down and run to ACK/friends call that running Combat....pfft....... or try to compare this to how they did it in the real world........if this was the real world I would want a 51 and stay as fast as possible run to fight another day.......except this isn't the real world hell we are not even replaying WW2 like we do in FSO.....get in there and fight I say.......and if you are a running I want to live at all costs type player.....don't for one second think that you are evolved in "Combat" when you nose down and run to friends/ACK or just to get away.....at that point you are running from combat not engaging in it.

if you look at my rank.....do you really see a "scorepotato" seriously........

[muzik]

you would lose that bet.

1-I never disengage from a fight once I start no matter what I am up against or how many...the only time I do disengage I am bingo ammo/fuel or have to avoid the nme's friends and merge with the other nme....FACT

Then you are telling me that you NEVER commit to a turn fight with a brew or a zeke unless you are feeling suicidal or you know they are such poor pilots that you are guaranteed a win? And you have never disengaged from such a fight even when it meant dieing?

Watch out, you're being set up here 

2-Using your planes strengths against your nme is a good thing..... I don't care if a 51 BnZ's the crap outta me as long as he tries to actually fight, I never said one must be in a "turn" fight to be fighting......

Good, clarification. I agree. And when I'm flying from a slower more maneuverable A/C I feel the same way.

people just don't like being called out on their lame game play, and I am not sorry but I will always call it the way I see it....if you are in a 51....190..ECT ECT..and all you can do is a couple lame no maneuver HO passes climb 5k away and come back and HO with no maneuvers......your game play is lame...

I agree completely, but I think the devil is in the details. You, like most people, will always see things from your perspective and not consider the dozen possible factors the other guy might be considering.

I have a story, but for the record, in a 51, I will stay and fight as long as I have fuel, I have energy, the odds are acceptable (number of enemy or possibility for intrusions), etc. I agree with your general idea of a "real fight."

One of the most memorable fights I have ever been in was in Air Warrior. Me in a pony v Murdr in 38. I knew it was him. Murdr has always been dangerous in the 38, but I was not afraid to give him a fight, I just didn't want to give him an easy kill. So I engaged and after a few turns he had gotten to the point where he was coming around on my six. The pony cannot turn with a 38 with equal pilots. So I friggen ran.     er extended. I think the first time it was about 2k before I turned back in.

The pony cannot outclimb a 38 in that short span of time either and if it does, it is a barely noticeable gain. The time it took me to get a 2k separation was enough to make anyone call me a runner. I had no intention of disengaging, but neither was I going to turn back in before my pony had enough energy to make a few turns without bleeding so much energy that I would die. So I turned back in and we went at it again. Same thing happened. After a few turns I didn't have the E to continue turning with him and I turned tail again.

Then came back. I think we did that about 4 or 5 times. I think my EXTENDING got longer and longer. Each "fight" I stayed to the very last second that pony could stay in the fight and survive. I won that fight, not because I out turned him in my pony, I won because I baited him into trying to save his energy for the run he knew I was going to make. At higher speeds, the pony has similar turn to the 38 and I got into one of his first turns and came out on top.

Most call that running, I was doing exactly as you stated, using the strengths of my ride to their best advantage.

If someone is chasing you and they can out turn you easily, you cannot turn back into them with a pony without about 2k separation or you're still turning when they catch you, plus you have bled a third of your E to do it. I think it took a good 2 to 4 minutes to get enough separation that I could turn back into him with something that resembled fighting speed when we merged again. He must have been cussing.

I do the same thing with a 38 if fighting a better turning plane. I will run and turn to engage as soon as I have the energy to do MORE than just go head on with the guy. I want enough energy to make at least a couple turns after we merge. And again, as I said it takes time to get that kind of energy and proper separation if they are chasing you.

If the shoe is on the other foot and my plane is the one that has the better turn, I chase him relentlessly. That is the nature of those advantages and it will never change and you will likely always think the other guy is a runner.

If you chase him for ten minutes and nothing, he is a runner. But it also depends on the top speeds of both planes. If you are in a 84 and me in a pony, the speed is close and it will take longer for me to get the separation I need to turn and fight with any chance of ACTUALLY fighting you again. If I've been running for 10 minutes and you are still 800 off my six, you're too dam close and if I try to turn and fight at that moment, and you are any good, then Im probably in trouble.

and there is big difference in a K4 using his climb to rope a guy..... then a 51(or any speed demon) running to ACK or friends as soon as he loses advantage...if you cant see the difference in that....well then I have no more to say to you.....for you are lost already.

Who said anything about running to ack or friends. Of course that's lame if it's a one on one and there was no good reason for it.

If a K4 driver is incapable of staying in a turn fight and winning, what does he do? He runs. The only difference is, even a decent k4 driver will know that he can outclimb his oponent so he runs UP. And not exactly away from the opponent, but he will stay up and over the opponent. Now he has you trapped, but no one ever calls that running because he is still close. The pony can rarely get an advantage like that after blowing E in a turn fight. It's harder to fight a pony than a k4 or an 84 for that matter.

and just a bit of advice...........before you make a "bet" you should know what you are betting against.

I know you don't go around committing suicide all day against zekes or brews in your ki. And from what I've seen you say, you're all about the fight and you will engage a zeke or Brew in a turn fight just as you would anyone else.

[spitter123]

I used to see P-51's and Go for them.





I can't now......