Mosq's Sustained Turn List 2012

[morfiend]

Still going on about your alternate physics?  Want to share some of the "math" yet?

  Karnak,

 Maybe,just maybe if we ignore him he'll go away!   Next thing you know he'll start saying something about G load and how in a 3g turn the planes wing will exert 5g's and thats what makes a 47 or 190 outturn a spit.......


    

  PS: thx for the hard work updating the list Mosq,once you have the site sorted I'll keep a copy to send players to.

[MOSQ]

I retested the Spit 14 in both directions. I didn't do as well as I did in 2006, the No Flaps turn was slightly worse and moved a few places down the list. It could be me, or the flight model, it wasn't a radical change. I'll post up a new revision once we have a few more checks done.

But in regards to Left Turn vs Right Turn, it makes no difference as far as ultimate radius/rate goes. As I learned the last time, people think planes turn better one way or the other because it's easier one way than the other. In the Spit, when you kick in WEP it's really hard to ride the edge of a stall when turning Left, I had to make a heck of a lot of turns before I had three good ones in a row. The nose wants to jump up or down like a banshee. Turning Right, it's much easier to control , (but still not easy). The speed and time measurements were the same in both directions.
But yes, given a choice, turn Right if you are in the 14.

Since the Spit 14 probably has the most overpowering torque/massive prop for plane weight, I didn't recheck the Tempest, Typhoon, or others. I'm glad to review/add your tests though!

[SmokinLoon]

I retested the Spit 14 in both directions. I didn't do as well as I did in 2006, the No Flaps turn was slightly worse and moved a few places down the list. It could be me, or the flight model, it wasn't a radical change. I'll post up a new revision once we have a few more checks done.

But in regards to Left Turn vs Right Turn, it makes no difference as far as ultimate radius/rate goes. As I learned the last time, people think planes turn better one way or the other because it's easier one way than the other. In the Spit, when you kick in WEP it's really hard to ride the edge of a stall when turning Left, I had to make a heck of a lot of turns before I had three good ones in a row. The nose wants to jump up or down like a banshee. Turning Right, it's much easier to control , (but still not easy). The speed and time measurements were the same in both directions.
But yes, given a choice, turn Right if you are in the 14.

Since the Spit 14 probably has the most overpowering torque/massive prop for plane weight, I didn't recheck the Tempest, Typhoon, or others. I'm glad to review/add your tests though!

Oh, I dunno 'bout that.  I "feel" a lot more adverse torque in the Typhoon than I do the Spit 14 (or the Tempest for that matter).  I certainly wouldn't be afraid to test the Typhoon again, it certainly "feels" better taking everything right than left.  Roll and turn both.

[Big Rat]

Great info Mosq, Thanks

 
BigRat

[Spork]

Not able to see it.

[MOSQ]

Not able to see it.

When you click this link there should be a Red Box. Click the box and the file should open. You can download it from there.
https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=4F7912F19B484B3B!725&authkey=!AH41epN2ncdKKcg

[MOSQ]

Great info Mosq, Thanks

 
BigRat

Thanks! 

[tunnelrat]

Thanks! 

Mosq, this kind of stuff is what sets AH and its player base apart from the raft of MMOs available.

Absolutely amazing work, thank you for dedicating the time to this!!   

[MOSQ]

Thanks for the kudos everyone! 

I've uploaded Rev 3 to the list, the same link above should work.
Changes in Rev 3:
Added the B-25 C.
The TBM no flaps data was missing. The full flaps was on the older versions so I tested and added the No Flaps. The TBM turns very well, but unlike most of the planes, almost as soon as the stall shake starts it becomes very unstable. If you fly the TBM into the stall shake like you do other planes it departs controlled flight very quickly. I learned to keep it just on the edge of the slightest shake, or no shake at all. Prior to the shake stage it is very docile and easy to turn. 

[RotBaron]

Outstanding info here, ty for the hard work. This is exactly the data I've been trying to get my hands on for better understanding of AH's plane set.

 

 

[MOSQ]

I was asked to provide 1 flap data for the P-51. So for the heck of it I did 1 flap data on several of the planes that have high speed maneuvering flaps, defined as being able to drop the first flap at or above 220 mph:

Niki2J;    572 ft, 23.5 dps

F4U1A;   655 ft, 19.4 dps

P-47D40 742 ft, 17.9 dps

P-47D11 742 ft, 17.3 dps

P-51D     760 ft, 18.9 dps

P-38L     804 ft, 19.9 dps


I didn't add this to the downloadable list, if you think it's useful you can pencil it in. I will probably add it the next time I revise the list.
 

[Shane]

Am I missing something, or is it not relevant?  Speed(s) used in performing these tests, both the extensive list and the recent high-speed list.  I'm sure I can calculate it from the figures you've provided but... I'm lazy.  

If the speeds used weren't constant across the tests, and even if they were, planes have varying best performance speeds? Did you just get to max level speed for each plane at 500 feet then start the turns?

Just not seeing anything about that in the write-up.  

<edit: Also, #14 and 17 ranked are labeled "sea hurricane">

[MOSQ]

Am I missing something, or is it not relevant?  Speed(s) used in performing these tests, both the extensive list and the recent high-speed list.  I'm sure I can calculate it from the figures you've provided but... I'm lazy.  

If the speeds used weren't constant across the tests, and even if they were, planes have varying best performance speeds? Did you just get to max level speed for each plane at 500 feet then start the turns?

Just not seeing anything about that in the write-up.  

<edit: Also, #14 and 17 ranked are labeled "sea hurricane">

The 1 flap turns really aren't relevant except if you are able to drop flaps at 225mph and the Ki-84 or Spit you are fighting can't drop till 160- 170mph. It's useful to know if you can or can't out turn the Spit even if it's only for a short period of time till both planes can deploy more flaps.

The speeds are at the edge of a stall, how the test was conducted is t the end of the write up. Basically take an LA-7 out, keep it at 500' and pull until the plane slows down to the point where it's shaking and almost in a stall. You can pull no harder without departing controlled flight or losing altitude. Keep it level for 3 turns, record speed and time. From that we calculate the radius and rate. If you are familiar with Badboy's charts you know the point where the plane has it's Sustained Turn. Low wing loaded planes like the Zeros and Val will have very slow sustained turn speeds, high wing load planes like a FW-190D have very high speed turns to keep from stalling, around 185 mph with no flaps.

#14 is the Sea Hurri with 8 303's, #17 is the Sea Hurri with 4 Hispano Cannons. You do know we have the Sea Hurri now? It's a Hurri 1 with CV landing gear. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,342673.0.html

[Shane]

Thx for the reply. 

I did do a search on sea hurricane as I was wondering if it had been added at some point - nothing came up except some scenario substitution back in '02... I probably inadvertently had my search too narrow.  I didn't see it on the list of planes from the home page link, either.

I should have known better when sustained was mentioned as to the speeds. Might not hurt to clarify that, tho' for those who check it out with even less knowledge.

[FLS]

Mosq it sounds like you're doing minimum speed turns instead of best sustained speed turns. You can see on the EM diagrams that flying slower than your best sustained turn speed is possible but gives you a slower rate and larger radius. Your best sustained turn is typically at 2.5 - 3 G for AH aircraft.