HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!

[Charge]

"Superior humans in the form of the Finns?"

Hardly. The main motivation was desperation as we were effectively abandoned by western powers and effectively forced to seek help from Germany (something Mannerheim actually resented).

Can you imagine what would have happened to Finnish people if USSR would have invaded the country? And possibly after that to Sweden, and Norway which did not have the military capability Finland had. There were lists of thousands of people to be terminated one way or the other when the Russians would arrive and these lists were updated years after the war, and you can bet the "purge" would not have ended in that.

For us the war did not end in 1945 but we continued to live "our back against the bear's den" as the peace terms dictated by the USSR and accepted by the western powers left Finland only marginally able to defend herself. History has thus shown that we can really only rely on ourselves in case of such devastating events so the patriotism you may find in us is actually rather tame considering the history and circumstances, IMO.

"wow wtf, 130 aircraft held off 3,800?????"

Not actually held off. Sometimes yes but generally not quite. Finnish fighters did take their steady toll of Russian aircraft but there was not much to be done when they were massed in some place as in those massive attacking phases.

-C+

[GScholz]

So, if it wasn't superior training, superior morale, superior organization, superior lines of communication, superior defensive terrain etc etc. What was the reason for this great disparity in military performance?

 Superior humans in the form of the Finns?   



JUGgler

It was a little bit of everything I suppose. The Finns fought to survive, as a nation and as free people; and while no one doubts the Russian soldier's morale and will to fight to save the Motherland, his morale during aggressive actions in other countries is more suspect.

The is one thing you failed to mention in that list of force multipliers is superior technology. In the Winter War the Finns had two weapons that the Soviets had no effective counter to:

Why the Soviets lost more than half their tanks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7EfR4K17G8

Why they lost a lot of soldiers in the Finnish forests and border towns: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxHeCyqbHk8

The Soviets would later copy the KP31 and turn it into their legendary PPSh41. The Finns had 4,000 of these excellent close quarters weapons at the start of the Winter War.

[GScholz]

Oh btw. 200+ of Häyhä's 700+ kills was with the KP31.

[Karnak]

There is actually a term "Finlandization" referring to the narrow line Finland had to walk post war to avoid angering the big bear next door.

Charge,

The Nazis had a list like that for the UK.  It was extensive, but also had signs of Nazi incompetence by including Brits and German refugees who had already died.  I wonder if they had a list like that for France?

[JUGgler]

It was a little bit of everything I suppose. The Finns fought to survive, as a nation and as free people; and while no one doubts the Russian soldier's morale and will to fight to save the Motherland, his morale during aggressive actions in other countries is more suspect.

The is one thing you failed to mention in that list of force multipliers is superior technology. In the Winter War the Finns had two weapons that the Soviets had no effective counter to:
Why the Soviets lost more than half their tanks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7EfR4K17G8

Why they lost a lot of soldiers in the Finnish forests and border towns: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxHeCyqbHk8

The Soviets would later copy the KP31 and turn it into their legendary PPSh41. The Finns had 4,000 of these excellent close quarters weapons at the start of the Winter War.

Correct, technology can be a huge multiplier and I did neglect to add it.

 My point is Finland did not own Russia based on individual superiority, there were many factors present that (even though seriously out numbered) shows the advantages were clearly with the Finns. These examples you cite are just added to the many advantages present, lets not forget another huge one was a compressed front, the terrain allowed the Finns the luxury of fighting in a relatively small front negating virtually all numerical superiority of the Russians.

 Had the Finns faced the Russians on terrain like the steps, they would have presented little more than a speed bump to them!


Anyway I completely agree with you!



JUGgler

[JUGgler]

I have hard time seeing it considering the definition of the word and because the discussion was about FiAF/Brewster's performance against VVS.


-------

All the FiAF fighters with the exception of 109G were starting to have more difficult time with the newer Soviet types, there's no doubt about that. However, "mauled" they were not, not even close.

Anyway, Juggler's motive is pretty clear every time he brings up Brewster and that is to stir sh*t. It is very evident to anyone who does a quick BBS-search.

 I have always maintained that the Brewster was "EASY". The point that it may not be able to run away doesn't detract from its ease of use and ease of being successfull with.

 Anyone here with any moderate ability I think would agree.
 I think those who think it is overmodeled confuse its easy use as "overmodeling"

Very very easy ride in AH


EASY


EASY!

By easy I mean effortless!


Just trying to be clear!


 


JUGgler

[Wmaker]

wow wtf, 130 aircraft held off 3,800?????

What Charge said about the Winter War air war...

FiAF couldn't really "hold off" the Soviet Air Force. FiAF fighters couldn't stop Soviets from bombing Finnish cities/towns. When Soviet bomber flights were intercepted by Finnish fighters they usually suffered sizable losses but vast majority of the sorties didn't encounter opposition. Soviets could simply fly so many sorties that they largely saturated Finnish fighter defense. The point is that considering the minuscule numbers of the FiAF fighters, the losses they inflicted to the Soviet bomber forces is very very impressive IMO.

Because the fighters were tasked mainly to defend civilian targets, Soviet fighters could fly over the front and just behind it more or less unopposed. They did a lot of strafing attacks and at worst times this was far more than just a nuisance but became something that started having  implications which were even strategic and tactical in nature.

Finnish Air Force couldn't really "stop" Soviet air force from doing what it was doing but the times Soviet aircraft ran into Finnish air units, they usually either lost an aerial engagement or managed to run away. There are of course exceptions but this was generally the nature of the Winter War's air war.

[Wmaker]

The is one thing you failed to mention in that list of force multipliers is superior technology. In the Winter War the Finns had two weapons that the Soviets had no effective counter to:

Why the Soviets lost more than half their tanks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7EfR4K17G8

Why they lost a lot of soldiers in the Finnish forests and border towns: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxHeCyqbHk8

There were only two 20mm rifles on the front during Winter War. Lahti L/39 didn't really arrive in time for the Winter War which is a pity because of course by the time of the Continuation War it was more or less obsolete as an anti-tank weapon but would have been effective weapon against the tanks used by the Soviets during Winter War. (A personal anecdote: My grandfather took out what was thought to be a Soviet sniper with Lahti L/39 during Continuation War.)

The anti-tank weapons of the Winter War were grenades, molotov-cocktails, wood logs, and satchel-charges.

Suomi KP/31 was rare during Winter War. Only 4000 had been made when The Winter War started.

[Wmaker]

I have always maintained that the Brewster was "EASY". The point that it may not be able to run away doesn't detract from its ease of use and ease of being successfull with.

Yeh, speed has nothing to do with being successful in AH. Heh, right.

I think the above sums up your credibility rather well.

I'll just ignore you from now on.

[kilo2]

 

[JUGgler]

Yeh, speed has nothing to do with being successful in AH.


At last, we agree!

I'm happy you finally came around!

good for you



JUGgler

[bozon]

Yeh, speed has nothing to do with being successful in AH. Heh, right.

I think the above sums up your credibility rather well.

I'll just ignore you from now on.

Slow planes enjoy a relative success in the arena because they basically feed off the leftovers of the 1945 monsters. The Brewsters and zekes would be completely frustrated if it wasn't for that friendly La7 that forces the enemy into a knife fight that they can jump into. In all scenarios and especially FSO events that had F4U/F6F vs. zekes, they ended with a massacre of the zekes.

[Wmaker]

Slow planes enjoy a relative success in the arena because they basically feed off the leftovers of the 1945 monsters. The Brewsters and zekes would be completely frustrated if it wasn't for that friendly La7 that forces the enemy into a knife fight that they can jump into. In all scenarios and especially FSO events that had F4U/F6F vs. zekes, they ended with a massacre of the zekes.

The "relative success" part I consider arguable but yep, that is how those planes get a lot of their kills, that is true. I generally agree with your statement.

That doesn't remove the fact that speed as per aircraft type is one of the most important if not the most important metric for a fighter to be successful in the LWMA. Anyone who thinks that "speed doesn't matter" in being successful doesn't know what he's talking about or has an ulterior motive. For being successful there's always the rtb-part which is a lot easier when you have the speed and that is pretty clear when looking at the k/d ratios of these planes.

[ink]

The "relative success" part I consider arguable but yep, that is how those planes get a lot of their kills, that is true. I generally agree with your statement.

That doesn't remove the fact that speed as per aircraft type is one of the most important if not the most important metric for a fighter to be successful in the LWMA. Anyone who thinks that "speed doesn't matter" in being successful doesn't know what he's talking about or has an ulterior motive. For being successful there's always the rtb-part which is a lot easier when you have the speed and that is pretty clear when looking at the k/d ratios of these planes.

spot on

[Karnak]

Yup.  Speed matters.  I remember Krusty telling Scherf and I that an extra 20mph wouldn't be very useful for the Mossie when we were pushing HTC to remodel the Mossie with ejector stacks.  Look at the Mossie's K/D ratio before and after that 19mph gain.  It went from about 0.65 to 1 to about 1.05 to 1.  There were other changes too, but by far the biggest was the boost in speed.