Author Topic: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!  (Read 9947 times)

Offline Wmaker

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #90 on: January 07, 2013, 09:06:52 AM »
I'm not sure about that. I think there is a direct correlation between an aircraft's ability and its ENY value.  There are some aircraft that have been neglected per say, such as the Spit 14. That bird needs an update for the ENY value does not match its ability, same goes for the perk price.

Without commenting on the Spit14's perk price or ENY, a perk plane isn't a very good example for your argument. Of course a perk plane's effectiveness cannot be gaged by it's usage, it is perked after all and most cannot fly perk plane indefinitely without running out of perks.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 09:12:47 AM by Wmaker »
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #91 on: January 07, 2013, 06:10:30 PM »
Without commenting on the Spit14's perk price or ENY, a perk plane isn't a very good example for your argument. Of course a perk plane's effectiveness cannot be gaged by it's usage, it is perked after all and most cannot fly perk plane indefinitely without running out of perks.

I believe a plane can be judged on its usage.  The similarities between the Spit 14 and Spit 16 in performance are too close to not compare, and the ability of the Spit 16 to carry 1000 lbs of ord, roll just as well as the 190's, turn well, accelerate very well, etc, etc, and NOT get a perk applied to it.  the Spit 16 is light and easy on the controls while the Spit 14 are like the Tyhoon.
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Offline JUGgler

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #92 on: January 07, 2013, 08:40:45 PM »
It's easy to understand someone might get ticked off when your country fought at many times 10:1 odds and managed to stop the attackers.

Put it 1:1 and then let's see who'se mauling who.



There are many ways to look at the odds (as you say).

 Considering that a "beligerant" must have some form of "force superiority" over its intended victim, odds of 10-1 (which incidently I vehemently question) is something not to extreme. In this 10-1 figure you use, you fail to take into account any "force multipliers" the Finns may have enjoyed. Such as weather, terrain, lines of communication, familiarity of terrain, interior logistics, local population support, intelligence as in "correct information recieved from patriotic locals" etc etc.
  All of these things are serious bennefits (force multipliers) for "DEFENDERS". Now lets take into consideration the "pathetic" state of soviet forces at that time. The purge of officers seriously degraded an already poor quality military. Historically the Russian military was never up to western standards and only momentarily thru out its history did it have very brief moments of moderate success.  The great expanse of Russia has been a far more effective deterent than its military. The Russian military was a very restrictive and monolithic behemith. Never encouraging self initiative or creativity. In contrast the Finnish forces enjoyed much "freedom of action and initiative" much like the western powers, this "flexibility" of command was encouraged by Finnish commanders all the way down to NCO ranks very closely resembling the German forces of the day. The Russians of the day were barely better than the Turks of the same period. I submit had the Germans NOT attacked the poles in 39 the, the poles would have had an easy go of repelling the whoefully inexperienced and incompitent Russian army as the Finns did. This is how bad the Russian forces were!!!

  With all that said I again say I intend no disrespect to the gallant Finnish defenders but the facts bear witness to the real reasons the Finns were able to hold off the Russians during the winter war!

  As far as the Brewster is concerned, it would be unreasonable to think that all of the problems that the Russian army had could not be extended to its airforce. In many respects the Russian airforce suffered far more degridation and paralysis from Russian purges and incompitanse.


With respect to Wmaker, whom is obviously a patriotic Finn, his "historical accuracy" is viewed thru his nationalistic fervor and should be treated as such.


A few years after the winter war the Finns enjoyed a far superior defensive position and were attacked by very large Russian forces again aand were rolled over like a worm on a muddy logging road. What was the most signifant difference? Well lets just say the Russians learned much from their experience fighting the very well trained, motivated and organized German army, of whom they could have only overcome by becoming far more trained, motivated and organized!  :aok



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« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 08:43:03 PM by JUGgler »
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Offline GScholz

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #93 on: January 07, 2013, 09:27:41 PM »
Much can be said of the benefits of being the defender, but the fact still remains that the Soviets never managed to advance more then ten miles into Finland. The picture below is meant as a joke, but it's the kind of joke you laugh nervously at, like at gunpoint.



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Offline Saxman

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #94 on: January 07, 2013, 11:08:46 PM »
I have to wonder how many of the 400,000 "missing" decided, "Screw Stalin, I like it here."
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Offline GScholz

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #95 on: January 07, 2013, 11:30:59 PM »


One little Finn... 705 confirmed dead Russians in less than 100 days.
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Offline lyric1

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #96 on: January 08, 2013, 01:13:52 AM »
(Image removed from quote.)

One little Finn... 705 confirmed dead Russians in less than 100 days.

Who is he?

Offline zarkov

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #97 on: January 08, 2013, 02:17:09 AM »
I hate to nitpick but the Brewster was never used in the Winter War by the Finns.

It arrived too late to be deployed and it ended up being used in the Continuation War.

As far as the Finns are concerned, WWII was split up into:

The Winter War (Finland vs. USSR)
The Continuation War (Finland vs. USSR Part Deux)

and

The Lapland War (Finland vs. Nazi Germany).

The Continuation War was when the Brewster was mainly used and it was mainly replaced by 109G2's and 109G6's in 1943.

Offline bozon

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #98 on: January 08, 2013, 03:35:24 AM »
One little Finn... 705 confirmed dead Russians in less than 100 days.
I am sorry, but I have little respect for snipers. That does not mean that they are not effective, but they are about as noble as assassins.
What is the difference between killing an enemy that does not know you are there and killing someone in his sleep?
They are an effective instrument of war, but I fail to be inspired by them.
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #99 on: January 08, 2013, 04:44:49 AM »
I believe a plane can be judged on its usage.  

If it's not perked it of course can be judged by its usage. The very point of the perk-system is to limit units which could otherwise upset the balance of the arenas through overuse.


With respect to Wmaker, whom is obviously a patriotic Finn, his "historical accuracy" is viewed thru his nationalistic fervor and should be treated as such.

I've been interested in the exploits of the Finnish Air Force since I was roughly 9. The above could have been an accurate description of me back then. Since then though, I've been far too interested about the actual truth to be that way. I have no problems talking about the mistakes of the FiAF or what could have been done better. I'm interested of the actual truth. On the other hand your attitude shows quite clearly what you interested in and that is sh*t stirring and flame baiting.

At first you flame bait and then when you get told that your comments are nonsense (which they were) you don't even try to argue your point anymore (because you know you'd lose that argument) and pull out the "ohh but he's a finn! - card". Pretty pathetic to say the least.


A few years after the winter war the Finns enjoyed a far superior defensive position and were attacked by very large Russian forces again aand were rolled over like a worm on a muddy logging road.

Again all you do with these kind of comments is reveal your ignorance. I suggest you actually read something about the Stalin's 4th strategic offensive and about the defense mounted by the Finns/Germans (Kuhlmey). It is true that when the attack started it truly disrupted Finnish lines of defense and the at first the retreat was made more in panic instead of being organized, but a lot happened after that. Again, you are just flame baiting with your descriptions, therefore it's impossible consider having an actual discussion.


To anyone who wants to read a rather accurate account of the offensive and its results can do so here:

Soviet strategic offensive

On 9 June 1944, the Soviet Union opened a major offensive against Finnish positions on the Karelian Isthmus and in the area of Lake Ladoga (it was timed to accompany D-Day[110]). On the 21.7 km (13.5 mi)-wide breakthrough segment the Red Army had concentrated 3,000 guns and mortars. In some places, the concentration of artillery pieces exceeded 200 guns for every kilometer of the front (one every 5 m (5.5 yd)). On that day, Soviet artillery fired over 80,000 rounds along the front on the Karelian Isthmus. On the second day of the offensive, the Soviet forces broke through the Finnish front lines. The Soviets penetrated the second line of defence by the sixth day. The Soviet pressure on the Karelian Isthmus forced the Finns to reinforce the area. This allowed the second Soviet offensive in Eastern Karelia to meet less resistance and to capture Petrozavodsk by 28 June 1944. The main objective of the offensives was to force Finland from the war.[111]

Finland especially lacked modern antitank weaponry which could stop Soviet heavy tanks, and German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop offered these in exchange for a guarantee that Finland would not seek a separate peace again. On 26 June, President Risto Ryti gave this guarantee as a personal undertaking, which he intended to last for the remainder of his presidency. In addition to delivering thousands of hand-held Panzerfaust and Panzerschreck antitank weapons (German equivalents of American bazookas), Hitler sent the 122nd Infantry Division, ½-strength 303rd Assault Gun Brigade, and a Luftwaffe Gefechtsverband Kuhlmey to provide temporary support in the most threatened defense sectors.

With new supplies from Germany, the Finnish army halted the Soviet advance in early July 1944. At this point, the Finnish forces had retreated about one hundred kilometres, which brought them to approximately the same line of defence they had held at the end of the Winter War. This line was known as the VKT-line (short for "Viipuri–Kuparsaari–Taipale", running from Viborg to River Vuoksi to Lake Ladoga at Taipale), where the Finnish Army stopped the Soviet offensive in the Battle of Tali-Ihantala in spite of the Soviet numerical and material superiority.[112][113][114] The front stabilized once again.[112][113][114] A few battles were fought in the latter stages of the war. The last of them was the Battle of Ilomantsi, a Finnish victory, from 26 July to 13 August 1944.[109][115][116][117] The struggle to contain the Soviet offensive was exhausting Finnish resources. The German support under the Ryti-Ribbentrop Agreement had prevented a disaster, but the country would not be able to hold another major attack.[118] The Soviet advances against German Army Groups Center and North further complicated matters for Finland.[118] With the front being stable so far, it was a good time for Finland to seek a way out of the war.[118][119][120] By the beginning of August President Ryti resigned to allow Finland to sue for peace again, which the new government did in late August.[111][119][121] The Soviet peace terms were harsh, but the $600,000,000 reparations demanded in the spring were reduced to $300,000,000,[109] most likely due to pressure from the US and Britain.[122] However, after the ceasefire the Soviets insisted that the payments should be based on 1938 prices, which doubled the amount.[122] This sum constituted half of Finland's annual gross domestic product in 1939.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War


As far as the Brewster is concerned, it would be unreasonable to think that all of the problems that the Russian army had could not be extended to its airforce.

Not at all, as they indeed did get their share of the purges. The purges in general have however been overstated in many occasions. Also to really understand the combat worthiness of the VVS and the aspects that affected it is a far more complicated than "Soviet Air Force sucked at first and then came better because Stalin initially executed all the competent leaders."


In many respects the Russian airforce suffered far more degridation and paralysis from Russian purges and incompitanse.

What is your source for this statement?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 06:13:01 AM by Wmaker »
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #100 on: January 08, 2013, 04:55:41 AM »
I have to wonder how many of the 400,000 "missing" decided, "Screw Stalin, I like it here."

Well you posted this theory of yours before but it doesn't sound anymore logical the second time.

I severely doubt the number of missing in that pic. But as far as your theory goes, do you really think that no one would have noticed 100000+ Soviet soldiers living it up in Finland? :lol

Maybe I've misunderstood you but I really can't understand your logic here.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 04:57:19 AM by Wmaker »
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #101 on: January 08, 2013, 05:03:27 AM »
Who is he?

He's Simo Häyhä. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_Häyhä


The Continuation War was when the Brewster was mainly used and it was mainly replaced by 109G2's and 109G6's in 1943.

Brewster was (unfortunately) never fully replaced as a fighter during the war. It remained as a front line fighter to the end. It stopped being the "back bone" of the Finnish fighter arm however.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 05:12:02 AM by Wmaker »
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Offline JUGgler

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #102 on: January 08, 2013, 06:59:15 AM »
If it's not perked it of course can be judged by its usage. The very point of the perk-system is to limit units which could otherwise upset the balance of the arenas through overuse.


I've been interested in the exploits of the Finnish Air Force since I was roughly 9. The above could have been an accurate description of me back then. Since then though, I've been far too interested about the actual truth to be that way. I have no problems talking about the mistakes of the FiAF or what could have been done better. I'm interested of the actual truth. On the other hand your attitude shows quite clearly what you interested in and that is sh*t stirring and flame baiting.

At first you flame bait and then when you get told that your comments are nonsense (which they were) you don't even try to argue your point anymore (because you know you'd lose that argument) and pull out the "ohh but he's a finn! - card". Pretty pathetic to say the least.


Again all you do with these kind of comments is reveal your ignorance. I suggest you actually read something about the Stalin's 4th strategic offensive and about the defense mounted by the Finns/Germans (Kuhlmey). It is true that when the attack started it truly disrupted Finnish lines of defense and the at first the retreat was made more in panic instead of being organized, but a lot happened after that. Again, you are just flame baiting with your descriptions, therefore it's impossible consider having an actual discussion.


To anyone who wants to read a rather accurate account of the offensive and its results can do so here:

Soviet strategic offensive

On 9 June 1944, the Soviet Union opened a major offensive against Finnish positions on the Karelian Isthmus and in the area of Lake Ladoga (it was timed to accompany D-Day[110]). On the 21.7 km (13.5 mi)-wide breakthrough segment the Red Army had concentrated 3,000 guns and mortars. In some places, the concentration of artillery pieces exceeded 200 guns for every kilometer of the front (one every 5 m (5.5 yd)). On that day, Soviet artillery fired over 80,000 rounds along the front on the Karelian Isthmus. On the second day of the offensive, the Soviet forces broke through the Finnish front lines. The Soviets penetrated the second line of defence by the sixth day. The Soviet pressure on the Karelian Isthmus forced the Finns to reinforce the area. This allowed the second Soviet offensive in Eastern Karelia to meet less resistance and to capture Petrozavodsk by 28 June 1944. The main objective of the offensives was to force Finland from the war.[111]

Finland especially lacked modern antitank weaponry which could stop Soviet heavy tanks, and German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop offered these in exchange for a guarantee that Finland would not seek a separate peace again. On 26 June, President Risto Ryti gave this guarantee as a personal undertaking, which he intended to last for the remainder of his presidency. In addition to delivering thousands of hand-held Panzerfaust and Panzerschreck antitank weapons (German equivalents of American bazookas), Hitler sent the 122nd Infantry Division, ½-strength 303rd Assault Gun Brigade, and a Luftwaffe Gefechtsverband Kuhlmey to provide temporary support in the most threatened defense sectors.

With new supplies from Germany, the Finnish army halted the Soviet advance in early July 1944. At this point, the Finnish forces had retreated about one hundred kilometres, which brought them to approximately the same line of defence they had held at the end of the Winter War. This line was known as the VKT-line (short for "Viipuri–Kuparsaari–Taipale", running from Viborg to River Vuoksi to Lake Ladoga at Taipale), where the Finnish Army stopped the Soviet offensive in the Battle of Tali-Ihantala in spite of the Soviet numerical and material superiority.[112][113][114] The front stabilized once again.[112][113][114] A few battles were fought in the latter stages of the war. The last of them was the Battle of Ilomantsi, a Finnish victory, from 26 July to 13 August 1944.[109][115][116][117] The struggle to contain the Soviet offensive was exhausting Finnish resources. The German support under the Ryti-Ribbentrop Agreement had prevented a disaster, but the country would not be able to hold another major attack.[118] The Soviet advances against German Army Groups Center and North further complicated matters for Finland.[118] With the front being stable so far, it was a good time for Finland to seek a way out of the war.[118][119][120] By the beginning of August President Ryti resigned to allow Finland to sue for peace again, which the new government did in late August.[111][119][121] The Soviet peace terms were harsh, but the $600,000,000 reparations demanded in the spring were reduced to $300,000,000,[109] most likely due to pressure from the US and Britain.[122] However, after the ceasefire the Soviets insisted that the payments should be based on 1938 prices, which doubled the amount.[122] This sum constituted half of Finland's annual gross domestic product in 1939.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War


Not at all, as they indeed did get their share of the purges. The purges in general have however been overstated in many occasions. Also to really understand the combat worthiness of the VVS and the aspects that affected it is a far more complicated than "Soviet Air Force sucked at first and then came better because Stalin initially executed all the competent leaders."


What is your source for this statement?



So, if it wasn't superior training, superior morale, superior organization, superior lines of communication, superior defensive terrain etc etc. What was the reason for this great disparity in military performance?

 Superior humans in the form of the Finns?   :aok



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Offline skribetm

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #103 on: January 08, 2013, 07:10:17 AM »
Much can be said of the benefits of being the defender .....

wow wtf, 130 aircraft held off 3,800?????
i mean even in ah the horde always steamrolls, but not vs the finns!

Offline Saxman

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #104 on: January 08, 2013, 07:24:18 AM »

I severely doubt the number of missing in that pic. But as far as your theory goes, do you really think that no one would have noticed 100000+ Soviet soldiers living it up in Finland? :lol


Doesn't mean they stayed in FINLAND, but could certainly have used it to get to other areas of the West. And the Soviets seemed to not like to discuss defectors seeing as how it pokes holes into the supposed superiority of their system.

Just a thought that comes up whenever I see that, assuming that number is even close to accurate.
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