Author Topic: P51 service ceiling  (Read 9278 times)

Offline GScholz

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #45 on: January 30, 2013, 09:49:51 AM »
Should be interesting for sure.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #46 on: January 30, 2013, 03:25:47 PM »

... But there are certainly a lot of 4-engine bomber claims.

- oldman

The type of aircraft does not tell you what mission it was on; the target of the bomber determines if it is on a strategic or tactical mission. The Allied heavy bombers were also tasked with tactical missions like the bombing of the Falaise pocket, bombing German strongholds like Cherbourg, and interdiction missions like bombing rail and communications targets etc.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #47 on: January 30, 2013, 04:58:16 PM »
Despite popular belief, like those expressed by Chalenge, only in regard to long-range strategic bombing did aircraft technology strive to go ever higher. In all other fields of combat the altitudes were far less, usually below 15k feet, because they flew in support of ground or naval operations. They could bomb a city from 30k, however attacking ground forces or ships required far greater accuracy. We see this clearly in the summer of 1944 as the Western Front stopped being only a strategic bombing campaign: With the Normandie landings the primary task of the Allied air forces changed, with the RAF and USAAF being tasked to support ground forces, interdict enemy forces and conduct airfield denial operations. Quite suddenly Allied fighter pilots went from having to fight at nose bleed altitudes to having to dodge church spires.

From the summer of 1944 onwards the air war in the west changed to the same type of air war that had been fought everywhere else since the start of the war. Our "war" in the "arenas" mimics this type of air war very well (for a game). While there are a few players who fly high, long-range, strategic bombing raids, most of our "war" is airfield denial (capping/vulching), supporting ground operations (capturing/defending) and supporting naval forces (carrier ops).

Again, early war concepts which proved to be impractical precisely because the air superiority the luftwaffe had early war was gone by late war. In the 2nd Battle of the Bulge (operation Bodenplatte) the Luftwaffe stupidly went in low level in order to smash the Allied air assets. They experienced heavy losses and in fact it was the end of the Luftwaffe as a result. Oh, sure, they had more aircraft and they could still fly, but they could never again mass forces against the allied assault.

What you are attempting to say in your rebuttal is contrary to all of aviation history. From the very beginning the recon aircraft would take pictures and harass ground forces. Someone came up with the brilliant idea of taking a gun with them to shoot down one of those recon planes, and the rest is history. Ever since it has always been about flying higher and faster. Yes, there were air operations at lower altitudes. Even at the last stages of the war American Bombers over Japan went in at low altitudes, but by that stage of the war the losses they encountered were considered acceptable in order to bring about the end of the war.

And what happened after the war? More speed. Higher altitudes.

It continues to this day.
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #48 on: January 30, 2013, 07:02:14 PM »
The type of aircraft does not tell you what mission it was on; the target of the bomber determines if it is on a strategic or tactical mission. The Allied heavy bombers were also tasked with tactical missions like the bombing of the Falaise pocket, bombing German strongholds like Cherbourg, and interdiction missions like bombing rail and communications targets etc.


Possibly you missed my original thought on this:  "With the barely-arguable exception of the period June-August, 1944, and again in January, 1945, Luftwaffe activity on the Western front after the invasion was virtually entirely directed to opposing the Eighth Air Force.  Even the forward-based Gruppen - and there were only a handful of those after August 1944 - were often directed to 8th AF interception."

All 8th AF missions, except for those associated with Cobra, were high altitude missions.  The 9th AF had no four-engine bombers.  The only time the RAF sent its Lancasters in low, so far as I know, was in conjunction with Goodwood (Dam Busters aside).  Consequently virtually all Luftwaffe claims for B-17s and B-24s would be from 8th (or 15th, which also flew at high alt) Air Force Missions.  Nearly all four-engine bomber claims would have occurred at high altitude.

- oldman

Offline GScholz

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #49 on: January 30, 2013, 07:19:35 PM »
Nonsense Chalenge. In the Pacific theater combat would very rarely occur above 15k feet, even in 1945. Same on the Eastern Front, Africa, Mediterranean, Middle East and Atlantic... On the western front combat above 20k would normally only occur when strategic bombing was involved, and only with the USAAF. The RAF bombers flew at lower altitudes; the Lanc could barely get above 20k in a clean configuration. The only high-flying RAF bomber was the Mossie, and during daylight even they preferred to fly at treetop levels.

Faster and higher did indeed become the priority post-war; the advent of the atomic bomb combined with the long distance between the USA and USSR meant that strategic bombing became the most important part of the cold war (at least until ICBMs became dominant). Now however, the current generation of fighters are actually slower than the last, and the new designs coming into service, like the F-35, are even slower than many fighters from the 1950s and '60s... So no, it does not continue to this day.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 07:43:19 PM by GScholz »
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Offline GScholz

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #50 on: January 30, 2013, 07:24:04 PM »
All 8th AF missions, except for those associated with Cobra, were high altitude missions.  The 9th AF had no four-engine bombers.  The only time the RAF sent its Lancasters in low, so far as I know, was in conjunction with Goodwood (Dam Busters aside).  Consequently virtually all Luftwaffe claims for B-17s and B-24s would be from 8th (or 15th, which also flew at high alt) Air Force Missions.  Nearly all four-engine bomber claims would have occurred at high altitude.

- oldman

Lancs can't go high... How goes your research into the Luftwaffe claims?
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #51 on: January 30, 2013, 08:49:34 PM »
Lancs can't go high... How goes your research into the Luftwaffe claims?


Oh please.  Your original assertion was:

"In all other fields of combat the altitudes were far less, usually below 15k feet....With the Normandie landings the primary task of the Allied air forces changed, with the RAF and USAAF being tasked to support ground forces, interdict enemy forces and conduct airfield denial operations. Quite suddenly Allied fighter pilots went from having to fight at nose bleed altitudes to having to dodge church spires.

From the summer of 1944 onwards the air war in the west changed to the same type of air war that had been fought everywhere else since the start of the war...."


Lancs flew higher than 15k.  The air war in the West didn't suddenly become the same low-altitude fight as the air war in the East.  As to my review of the materials MiloMorai identified:  Heh, it will take awhile!

- oldman (but there are still a lot of four-engine bombers there, that's easy to see)

Offline icepac

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #52 on: January 30, 2013, 09:09:53 PM »

Offline GScholz

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #53 on: January 30, 2013, 09:25:43 PM »
Oh please.

No.

Your original claim was, and I quote:


Luftwaffe activity on the Western front after the invasion was virtually entirely directed to opposing the Eighth Air Force.

I'm sorry, but that's just total bull...




Lancs flew higher than 15k.

Not often. They struggled at higher altitudes with a full bomb load. Their best performance was achieved at 13-14k.



The air war in the West didn't suddenly become the same low-altitude fight as the air war in the East.

It sure did...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3Kd6e7bYX4



- oldman (but there are still a lot of four-engine bombers there, that's easy to see)

For your claim to be true four-engined bombers would have to be the overwhelming majority.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #54 on: January 30, 2013, 09:56:23 PM »
Just scanned quickly through the document "Reich, West and Südfront, Aug to Dec 1944. Vol. I".

If we exclude Luftflotte Reich which was a dedicated Reichsvertedigung unit operating out of Germany, and the Südfront units which would be Italy and the Med, we find this as typical:

Not one... NOT ONE of these claims are above 15k. Most are below 10k.


JaFü II. Jagdkorps/Lfl. 3:
14.08.44   Ltn. Hans Grünberg: 72   5./JG 3   P-38    TH-6: 4.000 m. [Fismes area]   07.36   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.553
14.08.44   Uffz. Walter Jürling   1./JG 2   P-47    CD-5: 400 m. [12 km. S.E. Chartres]   14.38   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.228
14.08.44   Ltn. Eickhoff   2./JG 2   P-47    CD-1 to CD-4: 500 m. [Chartres 120˚]   14.40   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.109
14.08.44   Ltn. Fritz Bachmann   3./JG 2   P-47    CD-2: 50 m. [10 km. E. Chartres]   14.44   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.162
14.08.44   Uffz. Topp   4./JG 2   P-38    CD-5.9: 1.000 m. [Voise-Ouarville]   14.45   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.37
14.08.44   Ltn. Hans Waldmann: 128   4./JG 52*   P-47    BC-7: 1.000 m. [S.W. Ch.-en-Thymerais]   16.45   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.567
14.08.44   Ltn. Hans Waldmann: 129   8./JG 3*   P-47    BC-8: 600 m. [S. Ch.-en-Thymerais]   16.47   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.1
14.08.44   Ltn. Hermann Wolf: 54    8./JG 11   Spitfire    BE-9: 1.000 m. [S. Corbeil-Essonnes]   16.50   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.23
14.08.44   Ltn. Oskar Zimmermann: 26   9./JG 3   P-47    CC-8.3: 1.800 m. [Illiers-Combray 045˚]   16.50   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.831
14.08.44   Fw. Otto Schicketanz   4./JG 52   P-47    BC-6: 800 m. [12 km. S.S.W. Dreux]   16.55   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.568

JaFü Süd-Frankreich/Lfl. 3:
14.08.44   Ofw. Eduard Isken   2./JGr. 200   Mustang    CM-6.8: 4.000 m. [South France]    10.23   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.11
14.08.44   Uffz. Kniestedt   2./JGr. 200   Mustang    CM-6.8: 4.000 m. [South France]   10.23   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.10

JaFü Ost-Preussen :
15.08.44   Ltn. Gustav Francsi   1./NJG 100   Lancaster    25 Ost S/QB: 2.800 m. [Warsaw]    00.28   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: 114
15.08.44   Ltn. Gustav Francsi   1./NJG 100   Lancaster    25 Ost S/RA-1: 2.800 m. [Warsaw]    01.38   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: 16
15.08.44   Ltn. Gustav Francsi   1./NJG 100   Lancaster    25 Ost S/QC-8: 2.800 m. [Warsaw]   01.54   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: 114

JaFü II. Jagdkorps/Lfl. 3:
15.08.44   Uffz. Tempel   9./JG 2   Mustang    15 West S/UQ-8: 1.200 m. [S. Jersey]   08.12   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.132
15.08.44   Ltn. Alfred Heckmann   3./JG 26   Mustang    BC-3: 1.000 m. [Dreux]   12.28   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.156
15.08.44   Ltn. Gerhard Vogt   5./JG 26   P-47    BC-3: 1.000 m. [Dreux]   12.29   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.144
15.08.44   Ltn. Stein   5./JG 26   P-47    BD-6: 2.500-3.000 m. [E. Rambouillet]   12.30   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.145
15.08.44   Hptm. Emil Lang   Stab II./JG 26   P-47    AD-BD: 2.000 m.   12.31   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.80
15.08.44   Ltn. Wilhelm Hofmann   8./JG 26   P-47    AC-AD: 5.000 m. [N. Dreux]    12.34   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: ASM
15.08.44   Uffz. Corinth   5./JG 26   P-47    AC-AD: 5.000 m. [N. Dreux]   12.34   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.43
15.08.44   Oblt. Georg-Peter Eder   6./JG 26   P-47    AD-BD: 2.000 m. [Houdan-Rambouillet]    12.38   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.109
15.08.44   Oblt. Georg-Peter Eder   6./JG 26   P-47    AD-BD: 3.000 m. [Houdan-Rambouillet]   12.40   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.110

JaFü II. Jagdkorps/Lfl. 3:
16.08.44   Uffz. Ottmar Kruse   8./JG 26   Mustang    AD: 1.000 m. [Houdan S. Mantes]     14.35   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.44
16.08.44   Oblt. Bertels   Stab II./JG 26   Mustang    AD: 1.000 m. [Houdan S. Mantes]    15.32   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.82
16.08.44   Uffz. Hans-Joachim Burkel   11./JG 27   Mustang    S.W. Rambouillet: 3.500 m.    16.58   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.
16.08.44   Ofhr. Scheiber   13./JG 27   Mustang    Épernon: 3.500 m. [S.W. Rambouillet]   17.03   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.
16.08.44   Ltn. Hans Schliedermann   10./JG 27   Mustang    BC südl. Dreux: 1.000 m.   17.05   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.
16.08.44   Oblt. Franz Stigler   11./JG 27   Spitfire    BD: 3.000 m. [Rambouillet area]   17.06   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: Nr.
16.08.44   Uffz. Bodo Ring   10./JG 27   Mustang    S. Dreux: 8.000 m.   17.15   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: ASM
16.08.44   Ltn. Hans Grünberg: 73   5./JG 3   P-47    BD-59: 1.100 m. [Rambouillet 120˚]   17.15   Film   C. 2025/I   Anerk: ASM



And it continues like this for the rest of the war... Now in December:

Not ONE over 15k.


JaFü II. Jagdkorps/Lw.Kdo. West:
17.12.44   Hptm. Kaufmann   Stab III./JG 4   P-47    PN at 200 m. [St. Vith-Bïllingen]   10.04   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Oblt. Weber   Stab III./JG 4   P-47    PN at 300 m. [St. Vith-Bïllingen]   10.06   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Fhr. Kühne   Stab III./JG 4   P-47    PN at 1.500 m. [St. Vith-Bïllingen]   10.30   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Ofhr. Malsch   Stab I./JG 4   P-38    QN-96 at 700 m. [N.W. Bitburg]   10.51   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Fhr. Meinke   1./JG 4   P-47    QO-69: 3.000 m. [Daun-Wittlich]   14.17   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Fhr. Lachmann   16./JG 4   P-47    05 Ost S/ON-5: 4.500 m. [Roetgen]   12.10   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Uffz. Stenglein   6./JG 27   P-47    ON-6 at 2.800-3.000 m. [N. Mechernich]   10.46   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Uffz. Stenglein   6./JG 27   P-47    ON-9 at 2.800-3.000 m. [Mechernich]   10.48   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Fw. Ubber   16./JG 27   P-47    S. Euskirchen: 1.050 m.   10.50   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Hptm. Keller   Stab II./JG 27   P-47    W. Euskirchen: 2.500 m.   10.55   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Hptm. Dudeck   Stab IV./JG 27   P-47    NN-NO at 1.200 m. [Aachen-Kerpen]   11.02   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Hptm. Kutscha   15./JG 27   P-47    ON u. PN: 1.200 m. [Monschau-St. Vith]   11.02   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Fhr. Pejas   Stab IV./JG 27   P-47    NN-NO at 1.200 m. [Aachen-Kerpen]   11.03   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Ofhr. Prigge   Stab IV./JG 27   P-47    NN-NO at 1.200 m. [Aachen-Kerpen]   11.04   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Fw. Arnold   9./JG 27   P-47    ON-98 at 2.500 m. [Mechernich]   11.10   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Uffz. Prisille   14./JG 27   P-47    Euskirchen-Bodenh. 2.500 m.   11.30   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Uffz. Saffranovski   1./JG 27   P-47    PN-2 at 1.000-1.200 m. [Butgenbach]   14.41   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Fw. Deutschmann   3./JG 27   P-47    PM-3 at 1.200 m. [Spa]   14.42   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Ltn. Stein   7./JG 27   P-47    NO-78/OO-12: 2.300 m. [N. Euskirchen]   15.00   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Fw. Patan   13./JG 27   P-38    PO-8 at 2.000 m. [N.E. Gerlostein]   15.24   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Ofw. Leo Schuhmacher: -   Stab/JG 3   P-47    OO-69/OP-47: 1.500 m.   11.16   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Uffz. Hans Hermann: 1   11./JG 3   P-47    OP-42 at 100 m. [S.E. Bonn]   11.20   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Uffz. Gustav Aigner: 1   11./JG 3   P-47    OO-42 at 800 m. [Altenkirchen]   11.22   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Hptm. Wolfgang Kosse: 25   13./JG 3   P-47    NN-NO at 1.000 m. [Aachen-Kerpen]   11.30   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Uffz. Werner Talkenberg: 1   16./JG 3   P-47    05 Ost S/NO-8 at 1.500 m. [Mechernich]   12.05   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Gefr. Walter Reichert: 1   16./JG 3   P-47    05 Ost S/NO-7 at 1.500 m. [Mechernich]   12.10   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Uffz. Horst Schöne: 2   3./JG 3   P-47    NN-9 at 2.500 m. [Düren]   12.46   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. –
17.12.44   Fw. Karl Kleinemeier: 3   13./JG 3   P-38    OO-OP at 2.500 m. [S.W. u. S.E. Bonn]   15.30   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Uffz. Helmut Keune: 4   14./JG 3   P-38    OO-OP at 2.000 m. [S.W. u. S.E. Bonn]   15.30   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Fw. Gerhard Querengässser   8./JG 2   P-47    ON-8/PN-2: 2.000 m. [Monschau]   11.34   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Oblt. Siegfried Lemke   Stab/JG 2   Tempest    05 Ost S/PO: 2.500 m. [Eifel]   11.37   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Uffz. Werner   Stab I./JG 11   P-38    RO-4 at 3.000 m. [S. Bitburg]   14.34   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Fw. Koch   4./JG 11   P-38    RO-24 at 3.600 m. [S. Bitburg]   14.35   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Hptm. Rüdiger von Kirchmayr   Stab I./JG 11   P-38    QO-QN at 3.000 m. [Prüm-Daun]   14.36   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Ltn. Klein   4./JG 11   P-38    RO-2 u. QO 8: 2.500 m.   14.43   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Uffz. Grube   Stab II./JG 11   P-47    SR-1/TR-19: 1.500 m.   16.00   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Ltn. Bell   15./JG 54   P-38    ON-7 at 2.500 m. [Hohe Venn]   15.10   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Ltn. Resch   15./JG 54   P-38    PN-8 at 1.000 m. [S.E. St. Vith]   15.12   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Ltn. Brandt   16./JG 54   P-38    PN-8 at 2.500 m. [S.E. St. Vith]   15.12   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Gefr. Beckert   15./JG 54   P-38    OP-77 at 3.000 m. [N.E. Gerlostein]   15.30   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Uffz. Rudolf Delor   4./JG 26   P-38    PN-ON at 3.000 m. [Hohe Venn]   15.25   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Uffz. Rudolf Delor   4./JG 26   P-38    PN-ON at 2.500 m. [Hohe Venn]   15.30   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
17.12.44   Ltn. Joachim Günther   2./JG 26   P-38    PN-3/ON-12: 200-300 m. [Hohe Venn]   15.27   Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Chalenge

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #55 on: January 30, 2013, 11:01:38 PM »
Nonsense Chalenge. In the Pacific theater combat would very rarely occur above 15k feet, even in 1945. Same on the Eastern Front, Africa, Mediterranean, Middle East and Atlantic... On the western front combat above 20k would normally only occur when strategic bombing was involved, and only with the USAAF. The RAF bombers flew at lower altitudes; the Lanc could barely get above 20k in a clean configuration. The only high-flying RAF bomber was the Mossie, and during daylight even they preferred to fly at treetop levels.

Faster and higher did indeed become the priority post-war; the advent of the atomic bomb combined with the long distance between the USA and USSR meant that strategic bombing became the most important part of the cold war (at least until ICBMs became dominant). Now however, the current generation of fighters are actually slower than the last, and the new designs coming into service, like the F-35, are even slower than many fighters from the 1950s and '60s... So no, it does not continue to this day.

I think you are suffering from a reading disability, or brainlock. You don't want to go faster and higher, so you are channeling your denial into events as you prefer them to have been rather than how they were in actual fact. Even Boyington's boys fought above 30,000 feet in the Solomons and I know they weren't fighting Germans!

Rarely? I don't know. I haven't read ever combat report ever written, but somehow I doubt your capacity to speak authoritatively on this.
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Offline icepac

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #56 on: January 31, 2013, 07:30:11 AM »
Check the action reports and you find that more than a few battles were fought over 30,000 feet regardless of whether spitfire, P47, or P51.......with the enemy being equally high.

Type 30,000 in your "find" dialog on this document linked below for spitfires.

Better yet, try numbers like 37,000.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit9v109g.html#combat-reports

I find the same for p51 and p47.


Offline MiloMorai

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #57 on: January 31, 2013, 08:04:41 AM »
I didn't see any combat reports from 1944 for the Spitfire.

Offline earl1937

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #58 on: January 31, 2013, 08:20:27 AM »
I didn't see any combat reports from 1944 for the Spitfire.
:airplane: The reason is very simple, the combat range had been exceeded for the Spits, by the allied bombers, hence, other than shipping patrols and training flights, not much use for the spits, from late 43 till end of war. NOt sure, but only could find a intercept mission against JU-88's attempting to bomb shipping in the Northern end of the Channel between Ireland and Holland, by Spit 16's.
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: P51 service ceiling
« Reply #59 on: January 31, 2013, 01:06:33 PM »
:airplane: The reason is very simple, the combat range had been exceeded for the Spits, by the allied bombers, hence, other than shipping patrols and training flights, not much use for the spits, from late 43 till end of war. NOt sure, but only could find a intercept mission against JU-88's attempting to bomb shipping in the Northern end of the Channel between Ireland and Holland, by Spit 16's.

Never heard of the 2 TAF then, have you. Spit 9s (RCAF 401) were one of the first Allied a/c to shoot down a Me262