He177 ?

[GScholz]

Suspicions should never be voiced unless there is something more than... suspicions. Good to see you're retracting your accusations. I respect that. <S>

[jag88]

Yes, it does, but 88 is used for other purposes in the USA among skinheads.  My suspicion is not unfounded in my experience.

However in this case it is not that, nor is it the 88mm gun.  I did not recall that jag88 was the gentleman I previously discussed this with and I owe him an appology for having raised the issue here at all.

jag88, my sincere apology for having mentioned that at all.  It shall not be mentioned again nor do I think you share that kind of thought pattern.  I'll gladly defend you from such accusations.

No problem, I apologize for the words as well, I just dont like the association one bit.  Eternal damnation to whomever took my usual handle, JAG, and forced me to use a number that I thought completely harmless at the time.

[jag88]

Let me just ask, what are the reasons you would NOT take the He 177 in any given situation, considering it would be THE most tactically flexible level bombing platform in the game?

I want specific numbers for things like range, ordnance capacity, and speed, if they are contributing factors in your choice.

Speed in a heavy is pretty much irrelevant, fully loaded you are slow, contemporary fighters will catch you and the He-177 is no exception, it is barely faster than a B-24.

If heavy opposition is expected then armament is a must and the US bombers will be the best option.

If there is a fighter escort or light opposition then take the He-177.

If range is an issue then the Lanc.

But, I cant really compare numbers if the He-177 is not in the game now, can I?

Re the Ju-188 it was limited to 2t of bombs IIRC lacking some an internal bay making all ordnance internal, but I would have to look into that.  It even has an interesting armament with 2xMG151 a MG131 and a MG81Z, but it is no heavy bomber... The bit of extra speed is nice (I like the guns better) an will make you harder to intercept, but you will not get away from anyone if the enemy pilot is determined to chase you.

Dont get me wrong, I would LOVE the Ju-188A, but between it and a true heavy...

[Tank-Ace]

Speed in a heavy is pretty much irrelevant, fully loaded you are slow, contemporary fighters will catch you and the He-177 is no exception, it is barely faster than a B-24.

Speed is in no way irrelevant. Less important, yes, but it still matters.

It carries more ordnance than the B-24, at similar speeds, with strong defenses. If you want more speed, take less ords. You can still carry a good load at high speed.

If heavy opposition is expected then armament is a must and the US bombers will be the best option.

not necessarily. Boston's are more survivable in some cases, because they're damn hard to intercept.

If there is a fighter escort or light opposition then take the He-177.

No, you take whatever you want, because it will probably make it.

If range is an issue then the Lanc.

Range is never an issue. I've start bombed in Ju-88s before. You can get any heavy in the game across the map on a full tank.

But, I cant really compare numbers if the He-177 is not in the game now, can I?

find an original source with a speed chart. There are some.

But the point is that you can make the 177 fit any mission profile, which no other bomber could do in AH. That would make it the most flexible and most used in the game.

Re the Ju-188 it was limited to 2t of bombs IIRC lacking some an internal bay making all ordnance internal, but I would have to look into that.  It even has an interesting armament with 2xMG151 a MG131 and a MG81Z, but it is no heavy bomber... The bit of extra speed is nice (I like the guns better), but you will not get away from anyone if the enemy pilot is determined to chase you.

6000lbs for the Ju-188, by a quick trip to wiki. Likely the max was higher, given the Ju-88 could carry 6000lbs, and the 188's weight capacity was higher.

 Do 217 could carry 6600lbs internally at 347mph with ok-ish guns. 8800lbs with external mounts.

And the goal isn't to outrun them, its to be fast enough to make it back to base, and execute a high-speed landing before you get caught.

[Karnak]

How fast would the He177A-5 be with 13,000ish lbs of bombs and ~50% fuel?  That would likely be its most commonly used configuration in AH.  The top speed wikipedia lists is 351mph at 6,000m.  With 13,000lbs internally I'd expect it to be doing about 340mph, faster than the Ki-67 and much faster than the B-17, B-24 or Lancaster.

As a Mossie aficionado I can tell you speed is life.  It is the single most important survival trait of a bomber.  The Mosquito Mk XVI only does about 390mph when laden and yet it is almost impossible for even P-47Ns and Ta152s to catch despite being 80mph slower than they are.  Don't try to handwave that speed advantage away as it is huge.

[Karnak]

From a game perspective it is too bad that the Japanese didn't get the G8N Renzan 'Rita' into service.  It would make for a nice perk bomber as well.

From a history perspective I am glad they didn't get it in service.  It wouldn't have changed the ultimate outcome, but more Americans and Japanese likely would have died due to it.

[Denniss]

Supposed speed for the He 177 A-3 with climb&combat power was 550km/h in 6.8 km alt. Does not tell anything about weight though. If the engines were derated by one step to improve reliability expect this to be slower but expect it to be a lot faster if using a glide approach to target.
The range with full load of 7t was supposed to be 1100km, medium load of 4t = ~3000km

Some speeds for Ju 188E:
510 km/h with climb&combat power and four external fuselage racks installed. Each of them is supposed to cause a speed loss of 5km/h
All three following values with 14.7t weight and all four external racks
2x 1000kg bombs = 460 km/h
4x 500kg bombs = 425 km/h
2x 1000 + 2x 500kg = 415 km/h

I expect the Ju 188A to be faster than the 188E - Jumo 213 has more power and less draggy design

BTW the He 177 wasn't a massive failure but the program was - the unrealistic dive bombing requirement played a major part in the trouble that plagued early He 177.

[jag88]

How fast would the He177A-5 be with 13,000ish lbs of bombs and ~50% fuel?  That would likely be its most commonly used configuration in AH.  The top speed wikipedia lists is 351mph at 6,000m.  With 13,000lbs internally I'd expect it to be doing about 340mph, faster than the Ki-67 and much faster than the B-17, B-24 or Lancaster.

As a Mossie aficionado I can tell you speed is life.  It is the single most important survival trait of a bomber.  The Mosquito Mk XVI only does about 390mph when laden and yet it is almost impossible for even P-47Ns and Ta152s to catch despite being 80mph slower than they are.  Don't try to handwave that speed advantage away as it is huge.

That has been your problem from the start you are using wikipedia as a source.

[jag88]

Speed is in no way irrelevant. Less important, yes, but it still matters.

It carries more ordnance than the B-24, at similar speeds, with strong defenses. If you want more speed, take less ords. You can still carry a good load at high speed.
 not necessarily. Boston's are more survivable in some cases, because they're damn hard to intercept.
 No, you take whatever you want, because it will probably make it.
 Range is never an issue. I've start bombed in Ju-88s before. You can get any heavy in the game across the map on a full tank.
 find an original source with a speed chart. There are some.

But the point is that you can make the 177 fit any mission profile, which no other bomber could do in AH. That would make it the most flexible and most used in the game.

6000lbs for the Ju-188, by a quick trip to wiki. Likely the max was higher, given the Ju-88 could carry 6000lbs, and the 188's weight capacity was higher.

 Do 217 could carry 6600lbs internally at 347mph with ok-ish guns. 8800lbs with external mounts.

And the goal isn't to outrun them, its to be fast enough to make it back to base, and execute a high-speed landing before you get caught.

I seriously doubt the Do-217 can make that, much less loaded.  The Ju-188 carried 3t max.

Nowarra indicates 528kph for the 217M1, 520kph for the 188A2 and 520kph 177A5/R7, I would assume light.  Why? You speak German right?  Maybe you can help us here:



These are the number from the LW in 1944, as you can see 490kph is the top speed at mid-weight, that is 26t (Gm), 5t short of max (Ga).  That matches nicely with the data for Nowarra.

The 560kph I believe comes form earlier data from Heinkel, so either the aircraft did not meet the specs or (as I suspect) the engines were afterwards limited as a safety measure (look at the hp for the A3 and A5, see the difference?):



It claims 550kph at Gm, but the LW date form 1944 indicates only 490kph at that weight.  Btw, since the later and faster B5 was expected to make 569kph without the aft dorsal and nose turrets I think is clear the A5 was not capable of a similar speed in level flight.

I would expect the Greif to make the indicated 520kph when light, no bombs and reduced fuel, but with 7t bombs and with half fuel (4400l) it would be over the Gm by 1t and therefore slower than 490kph.

[jag88]

double

[Karnak]

That has been your problem from the start you are using wikipedia as a source.

Nope, not that wikipedia is as bad as people make it out to be.  That was just a quick reference as I don't have good sources at work.  That is why I was asking.

[jag88]

Nope, not that wikipedia is as bad as people make it out to be.  That was just a quick reference as I don't have good sources at work.  That is why I was asking.

Cant you read?

[Karnak]

Cant you read?

Yes, the post above my last one you estimate a speed of 303mph when loaded with 13,000lbs and 50% fuel and 323mph when light.  You don't give any source for that estimate though.

How well does the He177 fly on a single engine?

[jag88]

Supposed speed for the He 177 A-3 with climb&combat power was 550km/h in 6.8 km alt. Does not tell anything about weight though. If the engines were derated by one step to improve reliability expect this to be slower but expect it to be a lot faster if using a glide approach to target.
The range with full load of 7t was supposed to be 1100km, medium load of 4t = ~3000km

Some speeds for Ju 188E:
510 km/h with climb&combat power and four external fuselage racks installed. Each of them is supposed to cause a speed loss of 5km/h
All three following values with 14.7t weight and all four external racks
2x 1000kg bombs = 460 km/h
4x 500kg bombs = 425 km/h
2x 1000 + 2x 500kg = 415 km/h

I expect the Ju 188A to be faster than the 188E - Jumo 213 has more power and less draggy design

BTW the He 177 wasn't a massive failure but the program was - the unrealistic dive bombing requirement played a major part in the trouble that plagued early He 177.

Sounds about right, where did you get the Ju-188E numbers?

[jag88]

Yes, the post above my last one you estimate a speed of 303mph when loaded with 13,000lbs and 50% fuel and 323mph when light.  You don't give any source for that estimate though.

How well does the He177 fly on a single engine?

I did, the source is Nowarra, read again.

The 490kph for a 10t payload is my estimate based on the figures from the primary source, it actually should be 485kph or less since that would be 1t heavier than the 9t payloads mentioned therein; check your browser, you seem to be unable to see the image.

As I said before on an earlier post, it cant fly with 1 engine when over 22t.