He177 ?

[Lusche]

Lusche, as a bomber driver and bomber hunter, what would your expectations of the He177A-5 be?  Where would it fit in with the other four heavy bombers in Aces High?

The He 177 is a topic on which I'm torn in every direction  

If implemented in a late, relatively bug free version (as it's usually the case in AH), it would certainly get one quite dominant bomber by the specs alone. Now it would not be the first plane or GV in AH being so (just think of the Me 163), but it would be still very awkward to me., especially the prospect of potentially having to give it a light perk.

So while I'm not totally against it, I'm much more for the addition of a different Luftwaffe bomber, either the Do 217 (my fav) or the Ju 188 (your fav). Both would make much sense both from a historical as well as a gameplay balance point of view.

The fact that we got another slow EW bomber for the Luftwaffe really came as a blow to me. 

[Tank-Ace]

Griehl's book on the 217, commenting on the Do-217K1, and then on the next page mentions 510kph, which is odd.  I guess the 12,7t weight referred must be slightly above medium weight.

What were your sources again?

At work right now. Using my phone. I'll get back to you when I get home.

[Karnak]

The He 177 is a topic on which I'm torn in every direction  

If implemented in a late, relatively bug free version (as it's usually the case in AH), it would certainly get one quite dominant bomber by the specs alone. Now it would not be the first plane or GV in AH being so (just think of the Me 163), but it would be still very awkward to me., especially the prospect of potentially having to give it a light perk.

Indeed on the awkward count.  Where do you think it would stand in comparison to the B-17G, B-24J and Lancaster Mk III?

So while I'm not totally against it, I'm much more for the addition of a different Luftwaffe bomber, either the Do 217 (my fav) or the Ju 188 (your fav). Both would make much sense both from a historical as well as a gameplay balance point of view.

Ju188A is so pretty and it has a top turret with 360 degree rotation mounting an MG151/20....

The fact that we got another slow EW bomber for the Luftwaffe really came as a blow to me. 

The He111 is a classic looking bomber and I will up one now and then, but I suspect that the G4M1 will actually prove to be more survivable in the LWA....

[jag88]

The He 177 is a topic on which I'm torn in every direction  

If implemented in a late, relatively bug free version (as it's usually the case in AH), it would certainly get one quite dominant bomber by the specs alone. Now it would not be the first plane or GV in AH being so (just think of the Me 163), but it would be still very awkward to me., especially the prospect of potentially having to give it a light perk.

So while I'm not totally against it, I'm much more for the addition of a different Luftwaffe bomber, either the Do 217 (my fav) or the Ju 188 (your fav). Both would make much sense both from a historical as well as a gameplay balance point of view.

The fact that we got another slow EW bomber for the Luftwaffe really came as a blow to me.  

If I may, I am not so sure.

In order to carry the 7t load the He-177 had a range of 1.100KM, beyond that the load is reduced to 4t since the bomber would have to be modified to Rust-B, so the Lanc would still hold a load/range advantage over it and the US bombers a defensive one.  I do agree, however, that it would be the most balanced offer and that would make it attractive, but that does not mean the aircraft bests the others by far.  For example, for Steinbock the load was 5,6t on this track:



Theoretically it was within the 1.100Km, but still the load was not the full one, I would guess it had to do with the unreliable engines since early in 1944 they were still a major problem.  In any case, it should illustrate that the 7t option would be a limited one so it wont overshadow the Lanc completely.

[Tank-Ace]

Flights of more than about 600km round trip are extreme rarities. Most flights likely only cover 240km or less round trip.

Sectors are only 25miles (40km) wide.

[gripen]

The developement of the He 177 started 1936, almost simultaneously with British specification P.13/36 which resulted the Avro Manchester and Handley Page Halifax. Interesting comparisons can be made between these three types:
- specification wise the He 177 was more advanced, targeting 500km/h while British demanded minimum 275mph at 15k
- also British specification included shallow (30deg) dive bombing requirement
- originally all three were supposed to be twin engined planes but Halifax specifacation was soon changed to four Merlins due to the troubles with the Vulture
- eventually four engined versions were developed by the Avro and Heinkel as well (Lancaster, He 177B/277/274)
- the prototype He 177 flew November 1939, just few months after the prototypes of the Manchester and Halifax (July and September 1939)
- both, Manchester and Halifax, entered service November 1940
- developement of the He 177 was slowed down by engine trouble and continous specification changes, entering service spring 1942
- early service of the He 177 and Manchester was ruined by engine trouble
- RAF gave up with Manchester after about 200 were built, withdrawing it from service 1942 in favor of the Lancaster
- most He 177 problems were solved at the end of 1942 but continous modifications kept the serviceable number low despite over 1000 built
- developing and manufacturing this kind of bombers tied the most resources of the manufacturers, neither Heinkel, Avro nor Handley Page got any other new designs to the large scale production during war

[jag88]

I am aware of that, but since it appears the He-177 is expected to outclass the Lanc and such a thing appear to be a supreme heresy I wanted to put some perspective on the issue.  Not only that, the defensive advantage exists truly only on top (3x13mm vs 2x7,7mm) and bottom (1x13mm in barbette vs nothing), on the back the 2x13mm have an advantage over the single barbette 20mm with a quite limited field of fire, with a similar case for the front.  And as we have seen, fully loaded speeds would be pretty much the same.

A 217 would be great, save for the weak defensive armament, I would have loved to have the version with 3 or four torpedoes or a perk option for a Fritz-X.  The 188 is very attractive and has decent weapons, but a mostly external payload makes it more likely to use them as well.  I would still enjoy any of them... only that it would kill the Ju-88 and therefore we shouldnt get it, right?

[Karnak]

Ju88 is already dead and is a non-factor in considerations.

[gripen]

Well, after all the Ju 88 and the He 111 remained the work horses of the LW bomber force until the end, despite more advanced planes like the Ju 188, Do 217 and He 177 entered the service at varying success. While in the case of the RAF, the Lancaster and Halifax became the dominant heavy bombers.

However, there is certainly more room for the late war LW bombers in the game, there is just the Ar 234 now; a rarity in real life, even if compared to the He 177.

[Karnak]

I am pretty sure the Ar234 was added solely to give an obvious perk bomber that wouldn't take HTC a massive amount of work like the B-29.  Other perk bombers like the Mosquito Mk XVI and, in the future, A-26 don't jump out at people as big draw perk units. 

[jag88]

Well, after all the Ju 88 and the He 111 remained the work horses of the LW bomber force until the end, despite more advanced planes like the Ju 188, Do 217 and He 177 entered the service at varying success. While in the case of the RAF, the Lancaster and Halifax became the dominant heavy bombers.

However, there is certainly more room for the late war LW bombers in the game, there is just the Ar 234 now; a rarity in real life, even if compared to the He 177.

The Ju-188 offered a little improvement over the Ju-88, the later S variants would offer similar and even superior performance, the Do-217 was redundant, and the He-177 green and always almost ready for full rate production in the next variant.

I mentioned the 88 since the main beef seems to be the overshadowing of the Lanc, such is life in AH.

[jag88]

Heh, actually fully loaded the Lanc would be slightly faster, 6kph, than the He-177 if 440kph is truly the Greifs fully loaded speed.

[Karnak]

The historical footnote He177A-5 would heavily overshadow the historically major Lancaster and likely take much of the use from the B-24J and maybe the B-17G.  The fact that it would only overshadow the Lancaster like that due to completely fictional usability is the core problem.

While that may be fine in HTC's opinion, we don't know as they haven't chimed in, I don't have to like it.

[GScholz]

I'd bet there were more daylight sorties flown by the He 177 (on the eastern front) than the Lancaster. We don't have night. We don't have night-fighters. By your logic Karnak, the Lancaster should be removed from play.

Why hasn't the B-29 overshadowed the Lancaster?

[Karnak]

I'd bet there were more daylight sorties flown by the He 177 (on the eastern front) than the Lancaster. We don't have night. We don't have night-fighters. By your logic Karnak, the Lancaster should be removed from play.

I'd be very surprised if that proved to be true.  The very first Lancaster operation was during the day (they got slaughtered) and daylight operations became pretty common late in the war.

Why hasn't the B-29 overshadowed the Lancaster?

B-29 is perked and perked high.