Author Topic: K4 is easy mode vs. K4 is a symbol of courage  (Read 19161 times)

Offline Zacherof

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Re: K4 is easy mode vs. K4 is a symbol of courage
« Reply #150 on: April 27, 2013, 12:16:39 AM »
The only thing a noob needs is patciance, attentivness to listen and, a teacher that knows what he's talking about
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Offline Letalis

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Re: K4 is easy mode vs. K4 is a symbol of courage
« Reply #151 on: April 27, 2013, 02:51:18 AM »
If we were to use what a newbie could do with a fighter the 5 ENY fighters would be the A6Ms, Brewster, Hurricane Mk II and, perhaps, the Ki-43-II.  I think we can all agree that wouldn't be an accurate place for ENY 5 to reside in terms of impact on the MA.

Bingo :aok  ENY should be based on what an expert in the aircraft can make of it.
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Offline Zacherof

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Re: K4 is easy mode vs. K4 is a symbol of courage
« Reply #152 on: April 28, 2013, 12:17:01 PM »
A20 would be at 5, b17 at 5, p40 at 5, 38's at 5, everything at 5
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Offline LCADolby

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Re: K4 is easy mode vs. K4 is a symbol of courage
« Reply #153 on: April 29, 2013, 03:10:33 AM »
I like Pand's Signature picture, especially the nose art.  :aok
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Offline Pand

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Re: K4 is easy mode vs. K4 is a symbol of courage
« Reply #154 on: April 29, 2013, 09:24:46 AM »
I like Pand's Signature picture, especially the nose art.  :aok
I was wondering how long it would take before you'd notice!  That was my uber Martlet during the Mediterranean Maelstrom scenario.

It's all in fun... we all know you're better @ AH than me!  :cheers:

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Offline FLOOB

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Re: K4 is easy mode vs. K4 is a symbol of courage
« Reply #155 on: April 29, 2013, 03:07:24 PM »
I guess it depends on how one defines a noob. At about the one year mark most noobs seem to go through a 109 phase when they learn how to fight in the vertical. That's when we're most annoying because we think we've got teh skillz, unlike all those dweebs in easy mode planes.
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Offline LCADolby

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Re: K4 is easy mode vs. K4 is a symbol of courage
« Reply #156 on: April 29, 2013, 05:09:08 PM »
I was wondering how long it would take before you'd notice!  That was my uber Martlet during the Mediterranean Maelstrom scenario.

It's all in fun... we all know you're better @ AH than me!  :cheers:

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Offline Zacherof

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Re: K4 is easy mode vs. K4 is a symbol of courage
« Reply #157 on: April 29, 2013, 10:32:00 PM »
I guess it depends on how one defines a noob. At about the one year mark most noobs seem to go through a 109 phase when they learn how to fight in the vertical. That's when we're most annoying because we think we've got teh skillz, unlike all those dweebs in easy mode planes.

I remember that day....wait... I'm still..there :bhead

Ki84 is better to learn in :old:
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Offline Perrine

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Re: K4 is easy mode vs. K4 is a symbol of courage
« Reply #158 on: April 29, 2013, 11:20:26 PM »

The Ki-84-Ia is probably a 10-15 ENY fighter along with the Bf109K-4.


I'm ok with that only if this game fixes the Ki-84 tail bug (losing elevators @ 400 IAS in dive :headscratch:)

Offline Noir

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Re: K4 is easy mode vs. K4 is a symbol of courage
« Reply #159 on: April 30, 2013, 05:03:12 AM »

I'm ok with that only if this game fixes the Ki-84 tail bug (losing elevators @ 400 IAS in dive :headscratch:)

Limit the g forces and you'll be fine
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Offline tunnelrat

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Re: K4 is easy mode vs. K4 is a symbol of courage
« Reply #160 on: May 01, 2013, 12:07:32 PM »

I'm ok with that only if this game fixes the Ki-84 tail bug (losing elevators @ 400 IAS in dive :headscratch:)

Honestly, I would just like to know how the decision is/was made to have them rip off at all under those conditions... is it based on historical data, or just how the flight model dictates it should be... curious is all.

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Offline Zacherof

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Re: K4 is easy mode vs. K4 is a symbol of courage
« Reply #161 on: May 09, 2013, 06:00:35 PM »
Make k4 10 :banana:
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Offline Franz Von Werra

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Re: K4 is easy mode vs. K4 is a symbol of courage
« Reply #162 on: May 19, 2013, 07:01:34 PM »
informationless thread if I ever saw one. Shame on all of you!

*********
Bout the ki84... this machine had what? 1.5mins of wep, recharges in 75seconds? <-- not sure, close though.
These wep canisters were not 'unlimited' and were probably based on what the plane's engine could take without exploding. Only in the game does stuff 'recharge!'
All one would have to do to beat a KI84 is make the opponent ki84 fly at wep for 1.5 mins and then it would become 'military power' junk... slow, lousy climb... less power = less turning at any speed.
Ki84 would sux without 'recharging wep' peridoso.
All luft fighter planes had long lasting wep and in most cases didn't need an engine overhaul like the p51s if engaged it at all.

*********
K4s, and all 109's - about 'good pilots'...
Off the top: any player can subscribe to a second account? Then put the second account on opposite team and you have both full radars... super situational awareness.
Knowing when other planes are coming to help your opponent is precious info. And with 2nd account, could maybe even put vehicle at a spawn somewhere... u even have an idea of the altitudes of contacts as well as their positions - just look around from vehicle?
This also helps a player know where the targets are... not like some of us who might fly around for an hour missing the fights.

Good pilots means players that have finally figured out a few things.
A few of the things:
1) K4: I scoot front window up till the top bar disappears (forward arrow), and F10 saved. Now I can see much better. If I push forward on hat, I get full normal view to see the lower gauges. Then zoom as required, slider for this too so we can 'snipe' as required too. And I too set convergence to 650 for all of it. Of course setting all the windows helps. Specifically though, I can't fly or aim k4's at all with the default front window setting. Adding here... 262's have frontal blind spots no matter what we do with settings... ABSOLUTELY ENRAGING!  :headscratch:

2) WEP... have to turn this stuff off to aim... the nose is simply 'all over the place' too much to even begin to line target up.
Throttle control:
a) full power, wep on... cant aim and maneuvers are difficult. Addding, we use this to help in some maneuvers.
b) full throttle and wep off is when the plane is actually controllable.
c) if throttle is at less than full... combat trim starts throwing the plane in wrong directions. Best leave throttle at full... which is a handicapt to not really be able to slow down without suffering 'nose all over' penalties, especially in k4 because of the longer range of power... from zero to very much!

Using wep and torq to help control plane: this is like riding a bull...
When flying... especially in defensive maneuvers... sometimes we need to get our plane out of the way of the enemy's nose which is right behind us:
a) with full throttle, combat trim on, sometimes I might be turning one way, knowing enemy is about to have me lined up. This is when I sometimes let go of the controls, to see where the nose 'drifts to'... the question is where does the nose want to go? Now all we have to do is... help it go where it wants to go. Do throttle to full and add wep to make nose roll to the right more (throw plane right). Chop throttle entirely to make the plane roll the left more (throw plane left). (stick right, full power+wep vs stick left, chop power). kk
RULE of THUMB thing: if need go left, we stick to the left, and throttle back. If need to go right, stick right, full throttle and wep. <-- repeating self yeah yeah.
And then theres the stick and rudder, of course, to help the nose go where it wants to go. Half of where the nose is going is where the combat trim is sending it to, and this can be a problem because our inputs and combat trim can be cancelling each other out, eek. <-- means we are not moving at all relative to other plane.
This 'helping' the plane go where it wants to go, 'throwing,' is what can help us cause other plane to over shoot too. Use full rudder to slam on brakes.

the above: you cant just do this stuff on its own,  must be looking out back window and timing this stuff or you will only be flopping around in front of your opponent who slows down a bit maybe because we lose E doing this.. and then he blasts us, ded!

Other deal: how I do: full left rudder, full left stick.... then pull back... suddenly plane is stalling/rolling hard. <-- can use that too.
Or opposite, full right stick, full right rudder, then pull back.

3) Combat trim and maneuvers: trim in here is like an extention of the stick... the stick alone doesn't allow us the full range.
We must have two distinct settings for trim when flying the k4. These settings only have to do with anything when combat trim is OFF!!!
So, we sometimes turn combat trim off, then: One setting is to free the tail to help turn using slider, 2nd is to have full control of all the trims ourselves.
We put one button to switch to mode A and another to switch to mode B, can have three mode settings, see clipboard options part where we custom the controls.
Standard flying around is set for 'we control elevator, and airleron and rudder stay where they were last time combat trim was on.

so with combat trim off: (normally we ALL fly with it on, but we turn it off for tricks, must do tricks for the k4.
A) first setting: TO TURN BETTER. The trim so that there is nothing on our stick controlling the airleron trim, and nothing for the rudder trim either. We do set one slider for elevator trim. So.. when we turn combat trim off... plane will not change the airleron or rudder trim settings because it JUST LEAVES IT WHERE THEY WERE. And we then slam the elevator trim to 'full back' to help us turn. When in a dogfight, I might turn combat trim on and back off just to get a new updated position for the airleron and rudder trim. See, game will set it for our speed. Point is that the plane WONT BE PULLING IN EVERY DIRECTION. We have 'isolated' the elevator trim to slider for us to use to help us turn when required.
B) Other 'mode' is to have all trims assigned to sliders.
Standard procedure for me when landing on at a field or especially on a CV, turn off combat trim and have full custom.
This means we have a slider for each controls: airleron, rudder, and elevator. Normally before a flight I center all three of these things. <-- preflight mandatory, don't want to find out they aren't center when in dogfight.
OK, so coming in for a landing, we turn combat trim off, and all of our trims are center so the trims aren't fighting our controlling the plane. Only the wind / speed of our plane is causing it to do stuff. So easier to counter with normal controls.

This also helps when we have half a wing blown off. I go to this mode, of full control trims, in this case.
If left wing is half'ed, turn rudder and airleron controls to the right side.
If right wing is halfed, turn rudder and airleron controls to the left side.

Trim control is a must to fly the k4 because at high speed, it locks up and doesn't turn at all then. And at no speed is it deflecting max.
The k4 'flip' that someone said... is climbing, switching combat trim off, with airleron and rudder trim non controlled so they just stay where they last were. Same time slam elevator trim slider, to full back and lowering flaps at the same time. Once the plane 'goes over' or 'after the flip'... turn combat trim back on, and click in a row 'flaps up' to get them to go up. For me, getting flaps up is a must because k4's nose 'bobs' all over with any flaps... and of course, wep off, for better aiming... breath out... fire, hopefully u hit. Throttle accordingly too yep.

I am sure that real pilots did all this, dropping flaps, and trimming to help turn, but even a real fighter pilot would have trouble with 'game specific' interface control set up stuff.
One reason I like the game is that it has this stuff.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 07:06:52 PM by Franz Von Werra »
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Offline Franz Von Werra

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Re: K4 is easy mode vs. K4 is a symbol of courage
« Reply #163 on: May 19, 2013, 07:03:35 PM »
part2 lol, 10,000 characters limit.  :confused:

Turning!
This said, this is standard controls for any plane, more required in a k4 though. So even pilots in spit16's can do this stuff too, k4 can improve turn, but so can spit! Hence, spit16 still out turns k4. Then theres that stall speed thing that makes plane fall over to the left when pulling back, extreme in 190s, but not in k4s. K4 also recovers from this stuff better. Also there is the G limit when we begin to black out. Without the elevator trim at full, I have a heck of a time 'blacking out' in a k4. Need to be at edge of black out to know you are turning at max for the speed you are at. Oh and trim doesn't help if the plane is stalling / shuddering already.
A) Max turning at high speed: you will be blacking out. Need trim to induce this. If blacking out too much, turn combat trim back on, let go of controls? Some inputs to hopefully throw off enemy if firing at you heh.
B) Stall speed turning... shuddering of plane and buzzer... trim wont help here. Flaps would, but supposively, flaps don't help 109s turn in our game? sigh... I think flaps helped in historic! Flaps do help get nose over in a loop, which is why 'vertical' fighting is a method for k4's.

So yeah, controls freeze at high speeds, trim becomes mandatory. Controls do easy in our k4 so really, speed is only for running, or trading for alt, climbing, when in k4. Have to trick other plane into fighting your fight like any other. Get the fight to where you are above him, and at your turn number speed... about 200mph in k4?
Fighting 'in verticle' means doing 'trim and drop flaps' repeatedly at the tops of loops in a row...

Ki84's and spits seem to turn well without trim tricks, why new players stay in them. Advanced players get the most using the trim stuff.

I like the g6, it can throw nose all around better than any of the other 109s, if you ask me.
Amazing that Luftwaffe had all the aces, and most of them got their kills in the 109g6... so yeah I think the modeling is cruel to the g6, and all the 109s for that matter!!! boo!

A step up from all of this is: fly with out combat trim.. but this means micro managing trim when trying to fly!
A chart for the positions of the trim at 100, 150, 200, 250, 300, 350, 400, 450mph would be nice to have for every plane in the game.
This would mean that our inputs and combat trim wouldn't be cancelling each other out... maybe combat trim adds too sometimes, who knows.

While were at it... printing out the speed and climb charts, ON THE SAME SCALE (mph range is same at bottom of chart), for all planes would be nice, on clear paper.
Just overlap your planes speed / climb paper with your opponents and you know stuff like you are faster above 7k in a k4 than an LA7!!!

Also on the papers, 'turn numbers' would be neat too. So you know which speed is ideal for your plane to turn fight, and which your opponents is.
Why 190a8's need to stay fast! At higher speed they turn better I think, we know they don't turn at all at mid and lower speed, they just fall over to the left, as modeled!

A stick that has all the sliders?
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Historic my arse! luft had all the aces, required pilot, plane, amo, bullet proof glass, etc etc..  :banana:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_flying_aces
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 07:32:25 PM by Franz Von Werra »
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Offline Franz Von Werra

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Re: K4 is easy mode vs. K4 is a symbol of courage
« Reply #164 on: May 19, 2013, 08:24:01 PM »
three in a row!

Question: does anyone use airleron trim to help the 109 roll?  Or to help any plane roll?

This is why the chart for trim settings at all the speeds would be neato, using manual trim - one could use airleron trim to roll and then pull back to shake off an plane behind us.
<--- gold stuff here.

example: k4 vs k4, in a dive or anyways, at high speed, both probably do the elevator trim trick to pull back the same...
but if the chased k4 mixed in airleron trim at high speed... whew.  This would be a step better than the average 'ace.'
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