Author Topic: Oxygen  (Read 3397 times)

Offline muzik

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 980
Re: Oxygen
« Reply #75 on: May 13, 2013, 12:53:44 PM »
I'm not concerned about it affecting my gameplay at all. What I am thinking is this: if they put oxygen bottles in every airplane that will mean years of work. I would much rather have terrain triggered audio affects (ambient), more airplanes, more GVs, strats separated, and a hundred other things than I would one single footstep toward making AH a study simulation.

Your current argument is not supporting your position anymore. Now you just sound like someone upset that they are not going to get their way. And my assessment of your reasoning is accurate.

Your comments are out of line and inaccurate.

Where do you get the estimate on how long it would take them to model this? It's air, they don't have to build each molecule like modeling an a/c, we just pretend it's there. All they have to do is type a few lines that execute a blackout under certain altitudes and conditions. Quite simple I'm guessing.

If the "accurate assessment" you're referring to is your comment  "this is another way to get bombers to come down so I don't have to climb up to them." or the "You and the likes of you demanded changes be made to cause people to fight, to "force them to fight" if you will. Then you got hordes as a result. This wish is just as stupid" then your assessment could not in any sense be called accurate. In fact, it appears you are either arguing for the sake of arguing or you are concerned it will affect your gameplay, contrary to your statement it doesn't.

Calling someone else's wish stupid (even if it was, which this one is not) is childish and low class and strongly suggests you need more education even more-so when you conjur up inaccurate assessments.

This wish is merely a way to add a higher level of gameplay. If you think it is too hard, then say so instead of making up imaginary motives why others would enjoy this. IF you had said it would be too much for new players, then I might agree to that, but I don't think it is. As a matter of fact, this is one "reality" feature that I think can easily be applied and implemented to give this game a little more credibility with the "realism movement" with out significantly affecting those who don't care or want more realism.
Fear? You bet your life...but that all leaves you as you reach combat. Then there's a sense of great excitement, a thrill you can't duplicate anywhere...it's actually fun. Yes, I think it is the most exciting fun in the world. — Lt. Col. Robert B. "Westy" Westbrook, USAAF 6/<--lol@mod

Offline LCADolby

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7473
Re: Oxygen
« Reply #76 on: May 13, 2013, 12:56:10 PM »
Thankfully where I sit is only about 50ft above sea level, so my oxygen level is very comfortable.
JG5 "Eismeer"
YouTube+Twitch - 20Dolby10

MW148 LW301
"BE a man and shoot me in the back" - pez

Offline earl1937

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2290
Re: Oxygen
« Reply #77 on: May 13, 2013, 01:54:23 PM »
B-17 had electric turrets, same for B-24 with exception of the tail turret.  Gun charges were the "armstrong" type...you grabbed the handle and yanked it back.
:airplane: and don't forget the "RAT", which could be either Electrical or hydro. Used in emerency situations only!
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: Oxygen
« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2013, 02:54:04 PM »
It would also be good if they would add the possibility of the O2 bottles being damaged. 

ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline tuton25

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 476
Re: Oxygen
« Reply #79 on: May 13, 2013, 03:02:21 PM »
It would also be good if they would add the possibility of the O2 bottles being damaged. 

ack-ack

I thought this whole thing was about adding it so it could be damaged...
So no to micromanagement
but +1 to something that limits altitude effectiveness when damaged or causes a large fireball.....
><))))*> Da Fish is in Da Fight

Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Re: Oxygen
« Reply #80 on: May 14, 2013, 02:39:27 AM »
Your comments are out of line and inaccurate. . . [rubbish removed]

If you want to hit something on an airplane, something specific, then it has to be modeled within the aircraft model. In order for that to be done every aircraft would have to be revisited. All of them.

You want to talk about class? Your lofty opinion that this wish would somehow take gameplay to a higher level is misdirected. All of the recent wind changes have really damaged the bombers ability to hit targets in the game. At least, that is what it seems like since they are ALL flying at low altitude now. Forcing more changes upon them is downright underhanded, because you are forcing everyone into the short-distance furball/horde.

I'm not making it up muzik. I think the wish is stupid. If you want to create a more detailed simulation then let's have a study simulation. Bringing bits and pieces in on the whims of a few players is merely shaping the game into a low furball and people are, I believe, leaving as a result. Bomber pilots really don't like flying low. They like bombing and getting home. The reason this wish is stupid (my words) is because it ignores the bomber pilots in favor of the fighter pilots at a time when we should want to be inviting even more people into the game.

Keep living your fantasy and you will eventually be down to a few dozen people flying furballs over the same three fields endlessly.
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24760
Re: Oxygen
« Reply #81 on: May 14, 2013, 08:45:03 AM »
If you want to hit something on an airplane .... [whining redacted]

Geez, adding your perspective on the "huge chore" modeling hypoxia and bottles to the game would be as compared to modeling birds tweeting in the fields isn't making your "concern for the community" that your preferred method of playing the game would dry up due to oxygen systems threatening it sound any better. However, extreme predictions are oft borne of extreme fears. You must think this wish has more potential for approval than you claim, with as much blood, sweat and tears you're putting into fighting it. :D
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 09:17:25 AM by Arlo »

Offline Mister Fork

  • AvA Staff Member
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7295
Re: Oxygen
« Reply #82 on: May 14, 2013, 10:17:42 AM »
I think the simpler method as a damageable item near the pilot would work.  If not the bottles, then the system - air lines - to the pilot.  And then the blacking out begins...  Simple concept to implement - but it would not be a minor undertaking however from a programming perspective. You'd have to change every aircraft's damage model

OR... OR it could be just a pilot-centric damage - like pilot wound, but O2 system damage.
"Games are meant to be fun and fair but fighting a war is neither." - HiTech

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24760
Re: Oxygen
« Reply #83 on: May 14, 2013, 11:18:49 AM »
I think the simpler method as a damageable item near the pilot would work.  If not the bottles, then the system - air lines - to the pilot.  And then the blacking out begins...  Simple concept to implement - but it would not be a minor undertaking however from a programming perspective. You'd have to change every aircraft's damage model

OR... OR it could be just a pilot-centric damage - like pilot wound, but O2 system damage.

More survivable than PWs. If it draws even a small percentage away from PWs, you'd think this would be popular.  :)

Offline Mister Fork

  • AvA Staff Member
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7295
Re: Oxygen
« Reply #84 on: May 14, 2013, 04:47:00 PM »
More survivable than PWs. If it draws even a small percentage away from PWs, you'd think this would be popular.  :)
I think it could be one or the other - you get hit or your O2 systems.  It means having two possible damageable items - you as a pilot or your O2 systems. O2 means you need to get below 10'000 ft or start blacking out like you're PW'.   Simple to do I think but that's for HTC to decide...

Still a good idea Arlo. :aok
"Games are meant to be fun and fair but fighting a war is neither." - HiTech

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: Oxygen
« Reply #85 on: May 14, 2013, 05:41:23 PM »
I think it could be one or the other - you get hit or your O2 systems.  It means having two possible damageable items - you as a pilot or your O2 systems. O2 means you need to get below 10'000 ft or start blacking out like you're PW'.   Simple to do I think but that's for HTC to decide...

Still a good idea Arlo. :aok

Depending on the location of the O2 tanks to the cockpit/pilot, a hit on those tanks would very likely result in the pilot being killed by the explosion or receiving some very nasty burns.  For example, in Zekes, the O2 tanks were located behind the cockpit/pilot and US pilots were instructed to aim in this area because making the O2 tanks explode would either result in the pilot being killed or being severly wounded by the explosion/fire.

ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24760
Re: Oxygen
« Reply #86 on: May 14, 2013, 06:05:29 PM »
Depending on the location of the O2 tanks to the cockpit/pilot, a hit on those tanks would very likely result in the pilot being killed by the explosion or receiving some very nasty burns.  For example, in Zekes, the O2 tanks were located behind the cockpit/pilot and US pilots were instructed to aim in this area because making the O2 tanks explode would either result in the pilot being killed or being severly wounded by the explosion/fire.

ack-ack

If it's the tank that's hit. There's a possibility that the tank(s) is(are) missed but the hose is severed.

Offline muzik

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 980
Re: Oxygen
« Reply #87 on: May 14, 2013, 08:35:11 PM »
If you want to hit something on an airplane, something specific, then it has to be modeled within the aircraft model. In order for that to be done every aircraft would have to be revisited. All of them.

Again, an oxygen bottle is invisible to the player. We pretend it's there as well, it has no skin to cover or paint. And VERY likely, it will not be a true to life shape, but a box of some dimension that approximates the size of an oxygen bottle. 8 points added to the internal space on aircraft and the coading that defines the damage. Still not a huge task.

You want to talk about class? Your lofty opinion that this wish would somehow take gameplay to a higher level is misdirected. All of the recent wind changes have really damaged the bombers ability to hit targets in the game. At least, that is what it seems like since they are ALL flying at low altitude now. Forcing more changes upon them is downright underhanded, because you are forcing everyone into the short-distance furball/horde.

It's telling that you used the word misdirected. Because if you had said the "higher level" assessment was wrong, you would have to defend that and you know it is a higher level. Misdirecting is what you are trying to do.

IL-2 has probably the largest share of the entire flight sim market. That could be for any number of reasons, not the least of which is the free play after the initial purchase. But there is an obvious consensus among IL-2 users that know very little about AH that it is a lower fidelity game and they completely ignore the points that are better than IL-2. The only way this is going to change is with some noticeable changes in the game. Not just new aircraft.



I'm not making it up muzik. I think the wish is stupid. If you want to create a more detailed simulation then let's have a study simulation. Bringing bits and pieces in on the whims of a few players is merely shaping the game into a low furball and people are, I believe, leaving as a result. Bomber pilots really don't like flying low. They like bombing and getting home. The reason this wish is stupid (my words) is because it ignores the bomber pilots in favor of the fighter pilots at a time when we should want to be inviting even more people into the game.

I never suspected you were making up things. I know your blowing this game change out of proportion.

I don't care if bomber guys have to fly lower now. Level bombing has always been WAY too accurate. So if they want to fly lower, let them. More targets for fighters. That's the way it should be, risk/reward. But you said it yourself, it's not the oxygen that forced them down, winds did. So you just blew your argument. They are already low by your admission and oxygen will not change that.

Now I'm going to speculate, why is it so important to the bomber guys to fly low? Because as most of the players, they want that top spot on the scoreboard. Simple solution then really. Make winds that go all the way to the deck so that dropping 10k feet of alt doesnt really change the result that much. Then everyone who level bombs is on a even playing field at 10k or 20k.

And as far as people leaving, I think it's more because the game has changed little in over a decade.
Fear? You bet your life...but that all leaves you as you reach combat. Then there's a sense of great excitement, a thrill you can't duplicate anywhere...it's actually fun. Yes, I think it is the most exciting fun in the world. — Lt. Col. Robert B. "Westy" Westbrook, USAAF 6/<--lol@mod

Offline BuckShot

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1721
Re: Oxygen
« Reply #88 on: May 14, 2013, 11:37:05 PM »
O2: +1
Have it turn on automatically, but have damaged system cause hypoxia or alt reduction.
Game handle: HellBuck

Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Re: Oxygen
« Reply #89 on: May 15, 2013, 04:17:57 AM »
What you are now describing is no different than the critical pilot instant kills we already have.

Muzik stop trying to take the upper road here. This wish is based in ignorance of the way the systems existed in bomber aircraft, and ignorance of the design required to represent them in the game. In fighters it's a simple bottle, perhaps, but it goes far beyond that when you are talking about a life support system. The bottle itself is only part of the system. Of course the OP focused on that because it is the simplest way to think of a critical hit. However, there are several other ways to knock an aircraft down which he has ignored. Mostly, I think this wish is a waste of time because I believe Hitech has probably already taken considerable time in contemplation of exactly what a critical hit might be, and whether we are aware of it, or not, has already included them all in one form or another.

Where this wish is very thin is with bombers where the system is multiple bottles, some of which are already in the aircraft. Jump in a B17 and those yellow containers inside the aircraft are O2. Only a small portion of them are in the game, though. Also, bomber aircraft have all got portable units and likely enough for all individuals plus extras too. They had to have them because unlike fighters the bomber crew sometimes must move around inside the plane to take care of various tasks. So, in reality this will not have any affect upon bombers if, as you now want, the entire system is reproduced.

Among fighters the most likely cause of an O2 explosion is a hit by explosive ammunition, which requires just a proximity hit to destroy the O2 bottle. Anything else will require a direct hit, which means you are more likely to have also gotten multiple hits. Anything like the explosive ammunition or multiple hits will already (currently) kill a fighter. Again, wasted development.

So, in conclusion, all Hitech has to do is say "it's already in the game" and it is, because it obviously is. Now, you will say, "yes but we don't have an hypoxia effect," but you do. It's called a pilot wound. Now you might claim that with hypoxia you have the possibility of clearing your head. Nope, most victims died anyway and the reason is simple; they never knew it. The way most people today discover they are under the effects of hypoxia is communication, which in the war was non-existent because of radio silence. Those are the ones (some of them at least) that just flew off never to be seen again. End of story.

As to IL2, who cares? I really like AH the way it is, when it is at its best. Sometimes the net isn't up to speed and the game suffers. If you start requesting more items like O2 tanks, then I believe the net code will increase its load upon everyone's system. BAD idea.

I would love to see a study simulation along the lines of AH. Not only is AH better off as a survey simulation, but the Internet in the United States is unlikely to be capable of supporting a study simulation similar to AH for decades to come.

So, be careful what you wish for. This wish is ill-advised at best.
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.