ENY values that may need HTC's attention

[Letalis]

@Save:  See where you're coming from, but I'm not in favor, and not just on grounds of needless complexity.  This idea would work better with the "bomber/attack" aircraft like the 110,410 and A20.  Unless the loading of A-G ord were to automatically switch you to attack mode, it'll probably be gamed by many for "fighter/attack" units.  Even then HT wouldn't have fixed the problem you asked him to create.

Example: Let's say I want to fly a Spit 16.  Suppose its ENY is 10 as a fighter and 25 as an attacker.  Now suppose the ENY limiter is sitting at 12.  Well, I'll just load a 500 pound bomb on my 25 ENY "attacker" and drop it at the departure end of the runway if I don't need it.  If players are willing to fly B-26s directly over CV groups at 1k feet and use Lancs as dive bombers, you can bet this will happen.  

Even if nobody "games" it, as Karnak mentioned, it screws the whole idea of ENY if it is to have any significance. 
Aircraft should be assigned a single value based on their maximum capability. 

[Karnak]

I was assuming the ATK rating would always have to be lower than the ENY rating, or it immediately broke in too obvious a way for me to see it as a real suggestion.

I simply think that high performance aircraft like the P-51D, Spitfire Mk XVI, La-7 and N1K2-J need to be restricted from the hordes regardless of what they have, or don't have, strapped under the airplane.

[Ten60]

Wouldn't it be more logical/realistic to make ENY more of a fluid number?  One thing I've never fully liked is that a country could up 50 Lancasters and 50 P51-Ds as escorts with only 100 country members online.  Does this happen, no, but I'm sure it's been tried a few times.  If I were to make a suggestion I'd say make plane ENY fluid just like country ENY works.  Base the numbers off a mathematical formula where it references how many of those planes are in use by the country at that time ** as well as ** the planes abilities.  This brings in the real world aspect of supply into the game.  Nothing is to stop the entire AH community from all flying the same plane, even if it is under the county ENY cap.

The ENY restrictions and perk bonus would work right into this way of doing things.  As plane ENY sinks due to heavy usage it will approach the country ENY and when it hits the limit that plane is no longer flyable.

This does pose a bit of a programming problem as the base ENY of 0 wouldn't be easily achievable under most formulas due to the likelihood of a more logarithmic formula, but that too could be addressed with a small change.  (I know neither here nor there, but I felt it a necessary disclaimer)

[bozon]

This does pose a bit of a programming problem as the base ENY of 0 wouldn't be easily achievable under most formulas due to the likelihood of a more logarithmic formula, but that too could be addressed with a small change.  (I know neither here nor there, but I felt it a necessary disclaimer)

ENY are (more or less) and should be spaced on a logarithmic scale because what matter are ratios and not differences. A plane with ENY 5 vs. a plane with ENY 6 is like ENY 30 vs. ENY 36. Going below ENY 4-5 in a popular plane will result in large overall perk gains to the rest of the players. No matter how good the plane is, it can get vulched by an SBD just as well. If something really needs its ENY lowered below 4 it should be perked instead.

If we follow the La7 suggestion of a very light perk (nevermind for the moment if just the 3-guns option or entirely), then ENY of 5 combined with a perk cost of 1 means that killing ANYTHING of the popular ENY 5 rides and then dieing (0.8 perks gain factor?) almost covered the perk cost. That's before country modifiers. Picking on planes with ENY>10 is less lucrative because more than two of them are required to cover the cost (only if you die! perk planes are free for survivors). So flying La7s should be easily sustainable to a K/D=1 player and to players of lower K/D provided they fly for the less populated country to enjoy the >1 perk modifier. Worst case, If a player cannot afford 1 perk point, there is the very capable and very similar La5 ready to farm a few perks with. Other model lines have their own free, higher ENY earlier models to replace the perked ride for plane-dedicated players. I dont mind if the P-47M and TA152 for example get the same 1 perk treatment

But "AHH!" you may say, this puts new players at a disadvantage because they will not be able to sustain the cost of La7s. Well, at the same time they will be facing less La7s (and similar over the top fighters). The Perks tag, even of 1 is a psychological barrier and players who do not care for the La7 for historical or patriotic reasons will fly a free plane most of the time even of they have 3000 perks points piled up.
 

[Karnak]

bozon,

Kill an ENY 5 ride with another ENY 5 ride, then die, with even side numbers results in 1 perk point.  If you landed it, you'd get 1.25 perk points in that situation.

[Zacherof]

oR kill 4 ponies in a K4 you get...5

[Letalis]

ENY are (more or less) and should be spaced on a logarithmic scale because what matter are ratios and not differences.  

 

Wouldn't it be more logical/realistic to make ENY more of a fluid number?  The ENY restrictions and perk bonus would work right into this way of doing things.  

 

I was assuming the ATK rating would always have to be lower than the ENY rating, or it immediately broke in too obvious a way for me to see it as a real suggestion.

       

Yes, some of the high performers may need to be a little more regulated... but perhaps not as much as at first glance.  Consider that the Late War arena probably has some 30% of kills made by aircraft of 20ENY or higher.  The takeaway is that many people choose to fly other than late war aircraft in the LW arena, creating a little more dichotomy than might otherwise have been the case.  On the other hand, early war fighters like the D.520 and Ki-43 saw action through to the end of the war...

IMHO, it would be unfortunate to have the P-51 carry a default perk cost.  It was a very common front line fighter and obviously iconic.  It should theoretically be available to newbies from sortie#1.  That said, ~ 5% of ALL MA kills coming at the hands of the P-51D (that's 5% of ALL kills, not just A-A kills) is a little ridiculous.

Been thinking:  There is a problem with getting TOO lucrative regarding ENY if we have an enlarged scale as Bozon alluded to.  Instead of taking 20ENY as the initial middle ground, let's make it 30 instead.  The P-51D would then start at 14 ENY instead of 4.  As it becomes overused, ENY drops,  but never drops below 10- 10 being the minimum possible number used when determining perks gained for kills.  In this way you avoid the possibility of a 2 ENY Pony providing an overly excessive 30 perks upon death to a 60 ENY P-39D, instead, with the shift, the max would be 70/10, or a mere 7 perks, keeping everything consistent with current accrual rates.  

While displayed ENY never drops below 10, the logarithmic usage penalty formula continues to work in the background.  When the 51D reaches a formula-derived 9.4 ENY, it will display as a 10ENY aircraft costing 1 perk. (Rounds up from .6 deficit)      

[Karnak]

It would be fine to have a 5 to 100 ENY scale if the perk prices were adjusted to reflect the increased earning potential of things like the Bf109F-4.  In fact, combined it might be even more effective at diversifying the MA.  It would take a long, long time, even compared to the current settings, to earn a Tempest or Me262 if you just fly P-51Ds, but use the P-51B or P-40N and you get a lot more jet sorties.

[Lusche]

Please allow me at this point to introduce some personal pessimism to this thread  

By looking at the numbers online in the past few weeks, I wonder if there are possibly some more important things to do for HTC than spending a lot of time & energy on working out a complicated and detailed ENY mechanism as variously proposed in this thread.  

And by the way, we only have a fraction of the air combat we once used to have... maybe it's time we discuss tank ENY's instead pondering whether the K4 is ENY 20 or ENY 15...



You may now carry on with the regular scheduled program 

[Letalis]

Good point Karnak, maybe even a better way of going about things.  My intent in keeping parity for accrual rates was to avoid the inevitable outcry that would occur with swinging one way or the other.

As far as the expression of pessimism over this thread, and recent numbers...justified. AH belongs in the "endangered genre" category and "Aces Low" just doesn't have the same ring to it. 

Bad sign spending more time on BBS than in the game...sometimes I just can't help but care.   

[Karnak]

Lusche,

I have pondered tank ENYs and perk states too, but there are fundamental differences between tanks and planes.  A D3A1 will still punch nice little holes into an Me262 if the Me262 messes up, but a Tiger II could probably ignore a Type 97 Chi-Ha forever.  This makes tank combat effectiveness far more of a "yes/no" situation than the airplane's "if I am better/if I am lots better" situation and makes ENY and perk values hard to set.  I do see that a very few tanks dominate the kills/deaths.  M4A3(76), Panther V G, Panzer IV F, Panzer IV H and T-34/85 completely dominate.  Particularly the Panzer IV H and T-34/85.

[Lusche]

Lusche,

I have pondered tank ENYs and perk states too, but there are fundamental differences between tanks and planes.  A D3A1 will still punch nice little holes into an Me262 if the Me262 messes up, but a Tiger II could probably ignore a Type 97 Chi-Ha forever.  This makes tank combat effectiveness far more of a "yes/no" situation than the airplane's "if I am better/if I am lots better" situation and makes ENY and perk values hard to set.  I do see that a very few tanks dominate the kills/deaths.  M4A3(76), Panther V G, Panzer IV F, Panzer IV H and T-34/85 completely dominate.  Particularly the Panzer IV H and T-34/85.

I think you took that part of my remark a little bit too literally

[Letalis]

I missed that interpretation because it was too obvious 

[bozon]

Please allow me at this point to introduce some personal pessimism to this thread  

By looking at the numbers online in the past few weeks, I wonder if there are possibly some more important things to do for HTC than spending a lot of time & energy on working out a complicated and detailed ENY mechanism as variously proposed in this thread.  

And by the way, we only have a fraction of the air combat we once used to have... maybe it's time we discuss tank ENY's instead pondering whether the K4 is ENY 20 or ENY 15...

I totally agree.

While this discussion is going I occasionally drop my 0.02$, but in no way do I think that this is top priority for HTC, nor do I as a customer wish HTC to put this at the top of their to-do list.

btw Lusche, what were you referring to with the numbers comment? a drop in numbers? some of that is expected when the summer season approaches, or did you refer to the GV vs. planes usage %?

[Lusche]

btw Lusche, what were you referring to with the numbers comment? a drop in numbers? some of that is expected when the summer season approaches, or did you refer to the GV vs. planes usage %?

The main thing I was referring to was the number of players online, how many people there are in the arena. They have been slowly dropping for years now, but currently the numbers on the login screen are so low I have never seen before. Which might not be a 'problem' for a player at US prime time yet (I'm strictly talking about player experience, not any business stuff). Still enough around to get regular gameplay & battles going.
But I do run more and more into situations at which it's not "worth playing" (a very personal & subjective assessment!)  at my times anymore. Some days ago I had a definite MidWar experience in Late War: I logged on and there were only 9(!) players on my side. Nine players all over the large map of Compello. Less than 50 total.
A few years ago we didn't have less than 100 when I logged in at Euro noon time.  Even in my evenings the low numbers have an effect on gameplay opportunities. When I log on at 4am I can 'still have fun the old way'. Much less players than back in the day, but still enough to get things going and create some battles.

And it's worrying me, as I don't see this trend stopping in any way, especially with more and more competition around.


The second thing is indeed the shift in AH gameplay. I can give you an example: The amount of combat action, measured in kills.
You don't need to do any complex data mining or monitoring of any 'numbers online'. Just go the "plane stats" page, and call up any tour. It will instrantly give you the number of kills being made and thus the volume of 'combat'

Just take the last tour, 159 (April 2013) and compare it to the same tour 5 years before (Tour 99, April 2008): 336K to 697K kills total.
The interesting thing is: The number of Ground-to-Ground kills (mostly tank combat) went down by 30%. while number of Air-to-Air kills went down by 57%...