Author Topic: ENY values that may need HTC's attention  (Read 4038 times)

Offline coombz

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #60 on: April 28, 2013, 08:21:39 PM »
LA7 does not need  perk price  :huh
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Offline SPKmes

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #61 on: April 28, 2013, 08:25:04 PM »
I still got my 109F for perk farming!  :D And my G2, and my G6, and the Emil, and the 38G, and the 47D's, and the Yak's, and the 190A5.  :devil

in that last one you are a freak of nature.....  you will undoubtedly bring out many frustrations... and will be the cause of many puppy beatings....

Offline Dragon Tamer

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2013, 09:52:54 PM »
The problem with assigning perk values for the current planes is that people want to perk rides they don't like fighting against. On that note, rides I would like perked are the LA7, 190A8 and any plane Latrobe flies.

As for Letalis' system, in an attempt to iron out the kinks I think that "production" could be committed from the calculation since we get an unlimited number of our cartoon dream machines. I think you had a category for in game usage in the initial calculations, if not then the "production" category could be replaced with the amount of use the plane sees in the arenas.

As for the dynamic aspect, you talked about using the results from the current/previous tour to modify the ENY and perk value of planes. While I am all for this, I don't think using current tour or previous tour records is the way to go. It would most likely cause a yo-yo effect. Once the P-51 becomes perked, it's usage will drop off rapidly causing the ENY to rise again out of the perked area of the system and while this would most likely level itself off, it would take far too long and would cause all the dweebs to smash their keyboards. Instead a record from all of the tours could be referenced which would become more stable over time and in less time. In the event that a new plane is added, the system could be reset after that tour has finished and only that tour is used so that all planes will remain balanced no matter how long they have been in game.

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #63 on: April 29, 2013, 12:10:34 AM »
LA7 does not need  perk price  :huh

What else can fly as fast, climb as fast, accelerate as fast, turn as well, has 3 or more cannons, and can bust tanks with ordnance (don't discount wee little bombs on the La's, it is not as difficult as one may think)??? Tempest?  Hmmm. 

The La's Achilles Heel is range, it is no escort fighter.  Otherwise, it is the best interceptor in the game (other than Tempest) and certainly one of the top 5 dogfighters.

So yeah, the La7 could in fact use a small perk price such as 2-3.  Throw in the P51D and Spit16 as well.  Those three fighters for sure could use a small perk prince.  I've suggested the George may need a slight perk cost as well, but for me the jury is still out on that one.  The 109K-4 is too 1 dimensional, it does NOT need a perk cost.  No other planes dominate the game like the P51D, La7, and Spit16. 
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Offline Zacherof

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #64 on: April 29, 2013, 01:14:59 AM »
What do you means the K4's to 1 dimensional.  Only thing it can't do is drop ords.
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Offline Letalis

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #65 on: April 29, 2013, 01:20:26 AM »
What else can fly as fast, climb as fast, accelerate as fast, turn as well, has 3 or more cannons, and can bust tanks with ordnance (don't discount wee little bombs on the La's, it is not as difficult as one may think)??? Tempest?  Hmmm. 

The La's Achilles Heel is range, it is no escort fighter.  Otherwise, it is the best interceptor in the game (other than Tempest) and certainly one of the top 5 dogfighters.

So yeah, the La7 could in fact use a small perk price such as 2-3.  Throw in the P51D and Spit16 as well.  Those three fighters for sure could use a small perk prince.  I've suggested the George may need a slight perk cost as well, but for me the jury is still out on that one.  The 109K-4 is too 1 dimensional, it does NOT need a perk cost.  No other planes dominate the game like the P51D, La7, and Spit16. 

LA-7 deserves respect, but it is far from perk worthy. (11ENY in my book, about even with the D-Hog)  Implementing the usage perk protocol could theoretically drive it to perkland, but that's quite a reach.  Even with the ENY usage penalty, it still would only be down to 4 ENY at the moment.  It's got a fraction of the range that the Pony does, laughable A-G/external options, vastly inferior at altitude, and its weapon has crappy ballistics compared to  .50s.  I can land 7-10 kills in a D Hog but have almost never managed more than 5 in an LA against maneuvering targets.  Being able to spray high deflection shots with consistent success 600-800 out is a huge plus.  As for being the second best interceptor in the game... :uhoh  Does WEP usage have ANY effect on its performance above 9k?  An F4U4 would be a better interceptor choice hands down, even if you don't take into account it can do all the above from a CV and/or haul a real load of ord.  

The LA7 might be in the top 10 as a last ditch scramble fighter, but only below 10k.  Above that, the D Pony, 38L and even the D-40 Jug will match or better you in climb.  To recap: LA7 is crappy in the A-G, air superiority and escort roles. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svSGKJFSl-8)
NO PERK FOR YOU! :mad:
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Offline save

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #66 on: April 29, 2013, 02:14:07 AM »
Just make that bloody 3rd nosepointandshootubergun perked on the La-7, nothing is more effective than that .
rest of the la-7 is eny 1 .
My ammo last for 6 Lancasters, or one Yak3.
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Offline RotBaron

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #67 on: April 29, 2013, 02:25:49 AM »
Couldn't help but notice the N1K missing from the conversation. I'm not one to bomb gv's unless they are a threat so...

However, I often find the N1K unavailable at an eny of 8. Eny of 8 is the next jump from P51's and La7's (5). I guess if ord is taken into account, maybe it's where it should be, otherwise I don't think it's in the near-class arena of the fastest birds nor turniest. Yes firepower is superb at less than D500, after that I can't hit anything.

Of course I'm far from a decent AH pilot and maybe I can't exploit the N1k's advantages that make it an eny 8, but I find it frustrating not to have it available vs. the horde (often.)

What are the arguments for its' eny 8 value?
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Offline dirtdart

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #68 on: April 29, 2013, 03:53:26 AM »
I would say, start with questioning the entire point of ENY which seems to be side balancing. What rides, if affected by ENY, would result in the lower ENY side, unable to fight as effectively. Such as... Lancs and 17s go away. No more single run town killers. These conversations get wrapped around fighters, but they are only part of the equation. This discussion should include the GVs and bombers as well.

I would recommend revisiting the entire point of the system. If the intent is to encourage side balancing by limiting favorable rides, then the approach must be holistic.

If you really want evenly distributed sides, have a harsher ENY ratio. Make each disparity of +10 felt by the side with greater numbers....


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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #69 on: April 29, 2013, 07:47:04 AM »
LA-7 deserves respect, but it is far from perk worthy. (11ENY in my book, about even with the D-Hog)  Implementing the usage perk protocol could theoretically drive it to perkland, but that's quite a reach.  Even with the ENY usage penalty, it still would only be down to 4 ENY at the moment.  It's got a fraction of the range that the Pony does, laughable A-G/external options, vastly inferior at altitude, and its weapon has crappy ballistics compared to  .50s.  I can land 7-10 kills in a D Hog but have almost never managed more than 5 in an LA against maneuvering targets.  Being able to spray high deflection shots with consistent success 600-800 out is a huge plus.  As for being the second best interceptor in the game... :uhoh  Does WEP usage have ANY effect on its performance above 9k?  An F4U4 would be a better interceptor choice hands down, even if you don't take into account it can do all the above from a CV and/or haul a real load of ord.  

The LA7 might be in the top 10 as a last ditch scramble fighter, but only below 10k.  Above that, the D Pony, 38L and even the D-40 Jug will match or better you in climb.  To recap: LA7 is crappy in the A-G, air superiority and escort roles. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svSGKJFSl-8)
NO PERK FOR YOU! :mad:

Have you looked at the raw data of what the La7 can do above 10k?  Are you aware that the best altitude for speed in a La7 is 20k?  The La7 can dance just as well at 20k as it does at 10k.  This whole "at altitude" argument is bunk anyways because just how ofter do fighters and bombers "at altitude" (whatever that means???) actually mean anything? In AH, the hordes of P51D's and P38L's at no higher than 8-10k are what matter.  Typical engagement altitudes are what matter.  Typical engagement altitudes are below 20k, and more like below 15k. 

"Consistent deflection shots 600-800 with .50's"???  What have you been smoking or drinking?  I want some.  Matter of fact share some with everyone. 

You comparing the F4U-4 to the La7's interception ability only helps prove my point: Compare their actual speed and climb stats and report back.  Oh, please mention ENY values and perks costs while you're at it.  Do the same with the Tempest, too.  As far as the La7's lack of ability to move dirt, I mentioned that.  However, do not discount the triple 20mm's for destroying OBJ (or ripping apart aircraft or light skinned gv's), and certainly do not discount its dual 100kg (220 lbs) bombs, I've destroyed more than my fair share of tanks and OBJ with them.  It has been awhile though, I frown upon easy mode planes.  The only real Achilles Heel the La's have is range.  If the throttle is managed a player can realistically push 35 mins, otherwise good luck in getting more than the typical 22 mins. 

If HTC's criteria involves giving the Spit 14 a perk price, then one has to wonder why not the La7?  Spit 16? P51D? 
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Offline Zacherof

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #70 on: April 29, 2013, 11:33:31 AM »
I hate getting caught by an la in a 190 :furious
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Offline Letalis

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #71 on: April 29, 2013, 12:11:42 PM »
Post was meant to be funny, no need to get testy Loon.  The best way to win an argument isn't by getting angry, it's to start out on the correct side.

Yes, I've looked at quite a bit of data.  20k+ is a typical best speed regime for ALL planes.  That doesn't seem to help your argument.   http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php   Yes, the LA7 is a handful low and yes, most combat takes place low.  BUT, again, it isn't an A-G threat on par with LW U.S. birds, and it's gun package vastly inferior to the Jug.  Consider that the P-47 8x267 package carries 2136 bullets.  The LA-7 3x20mm packs 450 shells.

In total destructive potential the Jug's LIGHT gun package gives you 22 seconds of firing time at 80dps at an effective range of 800yds.  The LA-7 gives you 13 seconds at 80dps at half the effective range without half the deflection shot potential.  I'm guessing you need to fly more U.S. birds mate.  
Consider the total bullets a Jug carries vice the LA-7 once again.  Consider that the average Jug shot happens at 400 vice 250-300 (generous) for the LA-7. Now compare relative hit percentages for a competent Jug pilot (Letalis) vs an outstanding LA7 pilot (Diddler).

http://www.hitechcreations.com/component/option,com_ahscore/Itemid,223/view,pilotranks/index.php

That's a hit rate decrease of just 3% despite longer ranges and an additional 1600 bullets flying around.  Something else is clearly at work.

The Jug is a superior shooter's platform hands down, even the 6x.50 U.S. planes have substantial edges.  If a one second burst at 60dps does the trick on a spit, how much are you gaining with a 1 second burst at 80dps?  Law of decreasing returns bruh.

My previous point is that the -U4 is a better overall plane, same for the P-51D.  But, since we were talking "interceptor" for comparison.  The LA-7 will go from brake release to 10k in 2:35 provided it has NO ammo and ONLY 1/4 gas.  The F4U4 with full ammo and full internal fuel will do the same in 3:05. For the sake of that 30 seconds, which bird would you rather be flying above 10k now?   Regardless, you can't ignore all else and go  :x for a perk price simply because something is a good interceptor.  I'm annoyed by L-Gays too, but there are too many other factors here.

(Side note: I see the N1K clocking in at 670pts or 12ENY- 8 ENY is a touch low imho for an awesome plane that simply lacks a little top end speed)

And by the way Loon...NO PERK FOR YOU!  ;)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 01:00:05 PM by Letalis »
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Offline Triton28

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #72 on: April 29, 2013, 12:39:35 PM »
Adjust the 47M/152/K4 disparity, leave the Spixteen, 51D, and La7 unperked, but make the ENY kick in faster.  This is my solemn wish.  I honestly don't care about the Spit14.  Perk it or unperk it... I'll probably still fly it only about once every two tours.

You could make an argument for small perk prices for the 16/51/La7 and that would work, provided the number was small enough that new players could still have access to them.  I'm convinced the real reason that trio of planes is unperked is to give newer players a punchers chance at surviving and killing in the MA.
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Offline Ninthmessiah

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #73 on: April 29, 2013, 12:42:05 PM »
The copyright on the gonzoville chart says 2006 and I have issues with some of the testing criteria, most notably the way lethality is calculated.  It's a dated source.  Beware when citing.

Offline Letalis

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Re: ENY values that may need HTC's attention
« Reply #74 on: April 29, 2013, 12:50:20 PM »
I'm convinced the real reason that trio of planes is unperked is to give newer players a punchers chance at surviving and killing in the MA.

Agree on this point, definite possibility.

The copyright on the gonzoville chart says 2006 and I have issues with some of the testing criteria, most notably the way lethality is calculated.  It's a dated source.  Beware when citing.

Can you be more specific?  Do you actually disagree?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 12:57:20 PM by Letalis »
NEVER underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
-http://despair.com/demotivators.html

“Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” -Einstein