ENY values that may need HTC's attention

[Vinkman]

ENY is difficult to quantify.  If you're basing ENY on what an aircraft CAN do, it must be quantifiable and performance placed relative to the rest of the entire planeset, to include every submodel in the game.  Not just that, performance factors have to be weighed relative to the environment to a degree since not every plane model is represented uniformly in the MA.

I break performance down into 4 general categories, each with its own constituent factors:  Vector, Maneuver, Engagement & Intangibles.  Each category's constituent factors have a weight.  Weight is subjective but here's my stab...

Vector:
Top Speed (200), Acceleration (50), Dive Characteristics (40), Climb (60) = 350pts
Maneuver:  
Turn (includes instant, sustained, flap deploy speed and flap effectiveness (100), Roll (100) = 200pts
Engagement:
Toughness (includes not only damage tolerance but system redundancy and resilience.  The F4U-1A would trump the -1D because it has multiple fuel tanks) (50), Firepower (magnitude x duration x range x ballistics factor)  (100), Disposables (drop tanks, bombs, rockets) (100) = 250pts
Intangibles:

Methodology is solid. Scores and weighting might need tweeking, only becasue the Spit16 at 16 ENY seems a little high. But a good idea, well presented.  

[FLOOB]

Have you looked at the raw data of what the La7 can do above 10k?  Are you aware that the best altitude for speed in a La7 is 20k?  The La7 can dance just as well at 20k as it does at 10k.  This whole "at altitude" argument is bunk anyways because just how ofter do fighters and bombers "at altitude" (whatever that means???) actually mean anything? In AH, the hordes of P51D's and P38L's at no higher than 8-10k are what matter.  Typical engagement altitudes are what matter.  Typical engagement altitudes are below 20k, and more like below 15k. 

"Consistent deflection shots 600-800 with .50's"???  What have you been smoking or drinking?  I want some.  Matter of fact share some with everyone. 

You comparing the F4U-4 to the La7's interception ability only helps prove my point: Compare their actual speed and climb stats and report back.  Oh, please mention ENY values and perks costs while you're at it.  Do the same with the Tempest, too.  As far as the La7's lack of ability to move dirt, I mentioned that.  However, do not discount the triple 20mm's for destroying OBJ (or ripping apart aircraft or light skinned gv's), and certainly do not discount its dual 100kg (220 lbs) bombs, I've destroyed more than my fair share of tanks and OBJ with them.  It has been awhile though, I frown upon easy mode planes.  The only real Achilles Heel the La's have is range.  If the throttle is managed a player can realistically push 35 mins, otherwise good luck in getting more than the typical 22 mins. 

If HTC's criteria involves giving the Spit 14 a perk price, then one has to wonder why not the La7?  Spit 16? P51D? 

La7 sustained turning is nothing to poo poo either. This aint your AH1 La7.

[Letalis]

La7 sustained turning is nothing to poo poo either. This aint your AH1 La7.

True, but how effective are its flaps compared to U.S. birds?  If you're in a light Jug, the LA has to work for it.  I'd also say that if any weighing needs tweaking it is the turn subcat.  (D9 too high and Spits too low)

Looked at bombers a little bit, haven't gotten many data points built, but an interesting idea occurred to me that might mix things up.

For reference, a single B-29 can carry 40x500# bombs and costs 100 ENY.  I don't think I've seen any complaints on this perk value.  Let's say the B-25C ends up at 20 ENY.  A formation of 3 carries 18x500# bombs.  What if players could spend perks for additional aircraft in their formation?  Formula used would be: (1/ENY)(100)(1.6xN) where N is the number of aircraft over 3 in a formation.  A 4th aircraft would cost 8 perks, the 5th an additional 13, a sixth 21 more.  A six aircraft formation of B-25Cs would cost 42 perks and carry 36x500# weapons.  Overpowered?  Even if the player were able to control formation parameters, all formation aircraft would still have to drop at the same time resulting in a much less concentrated area of effect, impractical for point targets but much more useful for area targets.  Also, the total perks used would be evenly distributed amongst formation aircraft, (42/6) so 7 perks lost per aircraft lost during the sortie. 

Somewhat off topic but couldn't resist...

[SmokinLoon]

True, but how effective are its flaps compared to U.S. birds?  If you're in a light Jug, the LA has to work for it.  I'd also say that if any weighing needs tweaking it is the turn subcat.  (D9 too high and Spits too low)

Looked at bombers a little bit, haven't gotten many data points built, but an interesting idea occurred to me that might mix things up.

For reference, a single B-29 can carry 40x500# bombs and costs 100 ENY.  I don't think I've seen any complaints on this perk value.  Let's say the B-25C ends up at 20 ENY.  A formation of 3 carries 18x500# bombs.  What if players could spend perks for additional aircraft in their formation?  Formula used would be: (1/ENY)(100)(1.6xN) where N is the number of aircraft over 3 in a formation.  A 4th aircraft would cost 8 perks, the 5th an additional 13, a sixth 21 more.  A six aircraft formation of B-25Cs would cost 42 perks and carry 36x500# weapons.  Overpowered?  Even if the player were able to control formation parameters, all formation aircraft would still have to drop at the same time resulting in a much less concentrated area of effect, impractical for point targets but much more useful for area targets.  Also, the total perks used would be evenly distributed amongst formation aircraft, (42/6) so 7 perks lost per aircraft lost during the sortie. 

Somewhat off topic but couldn't resist...

La7 vs a P47x.  Lets see.... Speed?  Climb? Turn? Accelerate? Roll? Firepower? Dive... ah yes, there we go.  The dive is where the P47x can defeat the La7, otherwise the La7 will eat a P47 alive in a dogfight at altitudes below 25k.  The P47 has the advantage of range, high speed maneuvering at high altitudes, the ability to carry "meaningful" ordnance, and it can dive better.  All in all, my money is on the La7 in a dogfight. 

The B29 is the epitome of bombers in AH.  First, it can carry 20,000 lbs or ordnance.  Second: it is fast.  Not just for a bomber, but in general it is just damn fast.  Even if a fighter is able to reach speeds of 250mph or more, it hardly has the advantage thanks to the B29's ability to hurl massive amounts of lead in defense.  The B29 can bring an enemy industrial complex to its knees in 4 passes.  In 2 passes it can take the ammo factory down to less than %40 when it drops the 4/4000 lb bombs.  When armed with the 40/500 lb bombs, the B29 can lay waste to enemy strats.  The B29 is perked just right and has an ENY value just right.

Using the B29 and Boston III's as our basis of max/min, the Lancaster, B24, and B27 could all use a slight perk.  The ENY values are not far out of line, really.  At least imo.  The biggest  in the bomber category is the Ju88, it earns FEWER points while bombing than a B17.  Me thinks HTC used its total weight of ordnance to assign OBJ values (Ju88 = 6600 lbs ords, B17 = 6000 lbs), but the Ju88's useful ordnance is 4400 lbs.  Also, the Ju88 is quite a bit slower and far less able to defend itself than the B17.  All in all, I think the scales of ENY and OBJ have too many gaps in them.  Just my opinion. 

[save]

La7-3*20mm vs 190a8 : La-7 outclasses the A8  in all flight parameters except by a few % better roll in 190a8. Even HO's are to LA favour if you want to get really dirty, since the mg151 cannon have mediocre range compared.

What the 190a8 can hope for is an inexperienced La-7 driver, otherwise LA-driver cannot simply lose against the A8.

The La7-2 20mm guns at least give a small chance of surviving the short-range shooting at the deck rolling around at  tree-level.

[Lusche]

Even HO's are to LA favour if you want to get really dirty, since the mg151 cannon have mediocre range compared.

Both guns are in the same class, firing similar weighed bullets at similar speeds - 92g at 800m/s for the MG 151/20, 95g at 790m/s for the B-20. That makes them very close in ballistic performance


You can group the 20mm guns in game in 3 classes:

I. Hispano
II Mg 151/20 / Shvak, B-20, Ho-5
III MG FF / Type 99

[save]

These are the values I have for the mg151

AP ammo; 720 m/sec
HEI ammo: 750 m/sec
Minengeschoss ammo: 755 m/sec
Minengeschoss XM ammo: 705 m/sec

[Lusche]

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

[Wmaker]

Hispano for example fires faster than the factory specs and Mauser slower than the specs in AH.

[Karnak]

Both guns are in the same class, firing similar weighed bullets at similar speeds - 92g at 800m/s for the MG 151/20, 95g at 790m/s for the B-20. That makes them very close in ballistic performance


You can group the 20mm guns in game in 3 classes:

I. Hispano, Flakvierling 38
II Mg 151/20 / Shvak, B-20, Ho-5, Type 99 Model II
III MG FF / Type 99

Added guns.

[Zacherof]

Flak 38?

[Karnak]

Flak 38?

Gun used by the Wirbelwind.

[Zacherof]

I realized what it was as I typed it.

[Ninthmessiah]

Can you be more specific?  Do you actually disagree?

I think since 2006 flight models have been slightly altered for a few planes.  Not sure because I started in 2010, but I bet someone else here knows.  Also, some planes are missing and therefore unavailible for comparison on his site. 

My main gripe is with the way lethality is calculated in that it completely ignores convergence.  In this regard I completely disagree with some of the results and comparisons generated.

And that's all I'll say about that.  I'm not here to bash gonzoville.  It has its uses.  I'm just saying to tread carefully when citing to gonzoville as authority.

[Letalis]

@Loon: My money would be on the LA in a dogfight as well given equal pilots, the point   made is that there is more to the game than dogfighting.
Agree the 88 is a bit of a headscratcher.  It does have some interesting things going for it though that might partially explain things.  #1 It is capable not only of level bombing, but dive-bombing as well, which is very cool and can give you more options and accuracy in a pinch.  #2 It is torpedo capable.  It makes sense that you'd pay a slight premium on options a given unit type has.  #3 (And a distant 3rd at that) Fixed forward armament.  You can actually theoretically dogfight from the pilot's seat in this bomber.  Granted, I'd rather a TBM to an 88 any day, but it is a possibility.

@Save:  Similar to point above: comparing the LA7 to another of the worst dogfighters in the game shouldn't be the criteria for getting something perked.
A distinction can be drawn between fighters and true dogfighters.  I think we can agree the LA7 is more in the dogfighter camp.  The fact is that most fights do not occur in an empty sector.  In a many v many, factors like sustained turn lose importance relative to snapshot firepower and firepower duration.  Aircraft that can blow away the enemy in the brief moment they end up in front of the nose are better off than aircraft that generally need to "latch" in order to get kills.  (I put the Yak-9U in this category, Spits to lesser degree)  Latching gobbles up SA and usually slows you down.  I wouldn't expect the 190A8's MA k/d to fall below the LA7's any time soon.

@Messiah: Gonzoville is still pertinent as support to the degree it is accurate.  Climb, speed, acceleration values are easily verified.  If a given value didn't still stack up in game, I wouldn't cite it, just trying to save ppl time.  Turn verification is a little harder but doable.  Note that the climb times I cited were from my own testing tables (I'm slowly building an excel doc with performance values).  Your point on lethality is valid when it comes to fighter-sized targets.  For my testing purposes, I use hitting power at convergence.  Yes, the hitting power of wing-based armament will be somewhat over-represented, but it is more practical than building, and averaging and/or weighing lethality tables for every 50-100yds of distance for the amount of performance differentiation achieved.

BTW (I actually docked the Corsairs when I was running numbers for my ENY idea due to convergence -gave 60pts vs 65 for Hellcat, should have done same for N jug but forgot...)