having some balance troubles or is everybody cool with this?

[Citabria]

SBD's flying fighter cap over their own carrier? gamey? probably. realistic? rarely.

when you have only a small number of zeros as the only escorts for a bunch of rice paper bombers and you have to try to cover those bombers from not only a full flight of f4fs but from the SBD's that are flying fighter mode...

sorry but I lose all suspension of disbelief not to mention the balance issues of game the game gameplay like this.

we go through all this trouble for historical accuracy by flying ronson lighter aircraft with very small ammo loads vs very durable aircraft with enough ammo to kill about a dozen IJN planes with one clip all in the name of realism and I prefer it that way.

but if im going to take the time and hassle in the name of said realism I'd hope other squads would stay in the spirit of the event.


but fester your just ranting...

check the logs and see how many air to air fighter kills the SBD's got and tell me they have no effect on air to air combat balance. SBD5's had 38 kills many of them on d3a and b5n's.

in short. if your forced to fly SBD's or whatever the reason flying fighter cap with them above your CV to gain a 2 to 1 or more numerical advantage vs any oposing fighters is bad form.

[MachNix]

The Allies went from having 70 F4F's to only 48.  Those 22 pilots had to be put in something and the only choices where SBD's or TBM's.  And how realistic would it have been to have TBM’s flying fighter cap?    

The defenders do not have to just contend with the fighter sweep but also stop the attackers from getting their bombs on the target.  By exchanging some of the 4-gun platforms to 2-gun platforms, the Axis where facing fewer guns and it was harder (took longer) for the Allies to bring a plane down.  I was lucky enough to fly an F4F but could not deal with all the B5N's before they reached the carrier.  I'm sure the ones I got where frustrated with the lack of protection form their own escorts and feeling like sitting ducks, but kudos to them for getting the CV.

[cohofly]

The 55th 38th get CiC duty for Frame 3 Allies. Although I have yet to see the upcoming objectives, I would have to assume that we will be given even fewer F4F's. ( in all honesty I could be totally wrong). My question to Fester, and no disrespect intended, is: How do we fill these gaps?? Im all for historic accuracy but...... the reality is that we use the planes available. I see no other way around it. If we were to use the plane in a solely attack role, what is left for defense. Dont get me wrong I can see your point. Both sides are having to make tough decisions as to how to best utilize and which roles for all the aircraft involved.
<S>
Carver 38thFS

[APDrone]

SBD's flying fighter cap over their own carrier? gamey? probably. realistic? rarely.

...
in short. if your forced to fly SBD's or whatever the reason flying fighter cap with them above your CV to gain a 2 to 1 or more numerical advantage vs any oposing fighters is bad form.

First off, I fully agree that the balance in early war PTO is way off. 

However, SBDs WERE used in the CAP role at Coral Sea.. and were pretty good at it.   

Having said that, I really don't see a way to balance the event without making it something like 25/75 in favor of the Japanese.  Each SBD is worth 2 D3As.. and the Kate is hardly a match for a TBM.. Now, if the Devastator is ever introduced, that might take that down a notch....  and if the USN version of the F2A ( Brewster Buffalo ) is introduced.. that might make it a little better.

Yes, the Japanese planeset is accurate.. and trying to survive against blue planes flown by VERY experienced pilots ( keep in mind that the typical AH pilot probably has lifetimes more experience flying ( virtually ) than their real life counterpart ) is practically futile.  The only hope you have to attack your target is to be able to sneak in undetected.   

If you're found.. you die.

[ELD66]

I am absolutely LIVID. I am extremely disappointed in the CM teams decision to remove those F4Fs. In frame 1 Axis did not coordinate their attack at all. That is how allies did so well. It had NOTHING to do with the plane set.

 Allies Had 0 chance of defending while they were already at a disadvantage 2 allied CV's v 3 Axis CV's. If we could of only attacked 2 CV's we might of had a chance, but since that is now against the rules Allies are completely screwed.

 I have never left an FSO angry, until last night. I have been to well over 40 frames.

[Shifty]

First off, I fully agree that the balance in early war PTO is way off. 

However, SBDs WERE used in the CAP role at Coral Sea.. and were pretty good at it.   

Having said that, I really don't see a way to balance the event without making it something like 25/75 in favor of the Japanese.  Each SBD is worth 2 D3As.. and the Kate is hardly a match for a TBM.. Now, if the Devastator is ever introduced, that might take that down a notch....  and if the USN version of the F2A ( Brewster Buffalo ) is introduced.. that might make it a little better.

Yes, the Japanese planeset is accurate.. and trying to survive against blue planes flown by VERY experienced pilots ( keep in mind that the typical AH pilot probably has lifetimes more experience flying ( virtually ) than their real life counterpart ) is practically futile.  The only hope you have to attack your target is to be able to sneak in undetected.   

If you're found.. you die.

Actually eight SBD-3s were used as an add hoc anti torpedo plane CAP during the Battle of Coral Sea. Swede Vejtasa managed to kill three Zekes in his SBD. No Japanese Torpedo Planes were shot down and four of the eight SBDs were lost. Because of the losses the use of SBDs as CAP wasn't attempted again. A hasty last minute addition to the defensive CAP of 8 SBD-3s is a quite different animal than assigning twenty something SBD-5s to your CAP in a 1942 PTO FSO setup. Plus the addition of the F2A Buffalo would make no difference to the setup as Buffalos didn't participate in the Coral Sea battle. The only battle they could be used in would be a Midway setup.

[ELD66]

Actually eight SBD-3s were used as an add hoc anti torpedo plane CAP during the Battle of Coral Sea. Swede Vejtasa managed to kill three Zekes in his SBD. No Japanese Torpedo Planes were shot down and four of the eight SBDs were lost. Because of the losses the use of SBDs as CAP wasn't attempted again. A hasty last minute addition to the defensive CAP of 8 SBD-3s is a quite different animal than assigning twenty something SBD-5s to your CAP in a 1942 PTO FSO setup. Plus the addition of the F2A Buffalo would make no difference to the setup as Buffalos didn't participate in the Coral Sea battle. The only battle they could be used in would be a Midway setup.

 Well when you only have 48, you have to escort 3 strikes, and defend 2 cv's. It adds up to around 10 planes per. So against 14 zekes per assignment Allies were screwed.

[Shifty]

Oh yeah APDrone...

Swede Vejtasa was on hand last night. I think he changed his name to Mace though. 

[Butcher]

I got bounced by Zekes early in an SBD and ended up shooting down 5 with credit of 4. Would of been nice to make ace in an SBD - never done it before.
SBD isn't that great of a fighter, especially when it has a 500lb bomb under it and boatload of fuel - one zeke entered a rolling scissors with me for 10 minutes and eventually lost, he made a few mistakes.
If he would of kept his alt and just BnZ me he would of been fine, but I jumped in my rear guns and popped him one making him scared I had a tail gunner, and thats when he broke out of a turn fight with me to climb and thats when I caught him.
Zekes flown right, simply smash all allied aircrafts, however the limited guns and fact people dont put their convergeance to 250 or such or waste ammo spraying and praying, really is the problem not the plane sets.

I only flew Allied one or two other times for FSO in the coral sea, half a dozen times I was axis - so I know the differences between each side.

[Devil 505]

 Well when you only have 48, you have to escort 3 strikes, and defend 2 cv's. It adds up to around 10 planes per. So against 14 zekes per assignment Allies were screwed.

Your SBD are competent fighters and were used that way in both frames. North of C34 there was a 30v11 furball, only around 8 of the 30 were F4F. Our 11 zekes got waxed because your SBD is near equal in performance to the A6M2, but has more and bigger guns, MUCH more durable, and has super speed brakes. Sure we knocked some of them down but going 1 for one leaves 19 Allied planes remaining.

[Devil 505]

Your SBD are competent fighters and were used that way in both frames. North of C34 there was a 30v11 furball, only around 8 of the 30 were F4F. Our 11 zekes got waxed because your SBD is near equal in performance to the A6M2, but has more and bigger guns, MUCH more durable, and has super speed brakes. Sure we knocked some of them down but going 1 for 1 leaves 19 Allied planes remaining.

[Butcher]

Problem with c34 when I showed up over that CV, all the axis zeros were on the deck - there were only 10 above 30k who wouldnt come down, 10 that bounced at 20k and 10 were on the deck.

Not sure who planned that defense, but sorry to say Very few of the SBDs dropped their ords when they were engaged. I was bounced and didnt drop my ords - a good portion of the zekes were chasing SBD's to the deck.

[kilo2]

34 Did not go bad for the defenders the cv was still up at the end of the frame. I saw many sbds pickle their bombs long before they made it to target. It was not great but it was successful.

[APDrone]

Oh yeah APDrone...

Swede Vejtasa was on hand last night. I think he changed his name to Mace though. 

Cool!! I did not know that!   

The F2A reference was to early war PTO, in general.. not so much specifically for Coral Sea.

As far as other CAP deployment for SBDs... are you sure that was the only time?  I remember reading something.. I'm pretty sure it was one of the 'First Team' books, that described how, when a Japanese strike was imminent, the SBDs would launch and provide CAP.. and the TBFs would launch and get away from the fleet. It's been a few years, though..

[captain1ma]

Problem with c34 when I showed up over that CV, all the axis zeros were on the deck - there were only 10 above 30k who wouldnt come down, 10 that bounced at 20k and 10 were on the deck.

Not sure who planned that defense, but sorry to say Very few of the SBDs dropped their ords when they were engaged. I was bounced and didnt drop my ords - a good portion of the zekes were chasing SBD's to the deck.

we planned it that way! <S>