bomber formations

[Arlo]

HT set up bomber formations as three plane elements. This is an accurate portrayal for such. A six plane flight (box) would be as far as I would suggest at this time. It doubles the bombers commanded by a single player. Three players could operate a raid at group level. That's a pretty significant difference. If AI gunners are to be considered, it would be even more significant. I would also just leave it an option of single plane, element or flight. Perkies for a flight of 6 should be significant. Perhaps to the level of a B-29. Also, the ENY for a flight of 6 should be less than 10.

[gyrene81]

looks like the latest patch has something that may make flying bombers in formation easier to do...

Added a new autopilot mode that attempts to maintain the same relative position to your designated wingman (using the .wingman dot command) when it is first engaged.  It is not intended through any hard maneuvers and it has a maximum range of 1000 yards.  The default key for this command is Control W.  NOTE: This function may be unmapped in your keymap requiring you to manually map it.  It is under the flight section of the key mapper listed as Autopilot Wingman Mode. 

e-z mode formation flying...


*recap* one of Muzik's arguments was how difficult it is for people to fly in formation, hence the need for large bomber formations.

[Zacherof]

looks like the latest patch has something that may make flying bombers in formation easier to do...
 
e-z mode formation flying...


*recap* one of Muzik's arguments was how difficult it is for people to fly in formation, hence the need for large bomber formations.

there's a new patch?

[earl1937]

Huh. You don't ask for much do ya? 

Wasn't quite sure where to put this post, so I thought I would tack it onto your thread! I fly bomber missions about 95% of the time when I am in the game! Here is what I have seen and things I do to try to keep everyone together. First thing I do after takeoff is a "dot speed" 120 climb in B-17's, with 50% fuel and 12 500lbers in the bomb bay. Next, always turn at a "standard" rate of 3 degrees per second and only turn no more than a 30 degree heading change at a time. A standard rate of turn is established by using your "turn and bank" indicator, which has 2 little "dog" houses at the top of the instrument. When you bank, place the vertical needle on one of the "dog" houses and you are making a "standard rate" turn. Takes a little more time for en route time to target, but keeps bombers together. At cruising altitude, I use 35 inches manifold pressure and default RPM. This way, if anyone is behind, its is a lot easier for them to catch up. It is easier for bomber elements out of position to rejoin the main body of the formation of bombers.
When I join other people's missions in B-17's, they go full throttle all the time, default climb and cruise and then people are scattered all over the place.
I give course changes in degree headings, example: "Turn left heading 230 degrees", I never say left turn and then start turning and then with out saying anything, roll out on the heading I want.
I expect each pilot to fly his aircraft from the #1 or pilots position, so they can see the headings I want.
While I know that most of the people in this game are not real pilots, there is no reason they can't be trained, it just takes a little Patience and practice instructions to help them out!!

[muzik]

No offense but in the MA; such ahigh number otero es is just too much. Youwant that many have a friend up.

No offense taken. Your sentences are barely readable and you still wont provide a good reason that 24 is too much. Not a highly worrisome counter argument.

Although there is one POSSIBLY valid argument that I knew would come up but I wasn't going to offer. Never offer ammunition to the man who wants to shoot you.

Arlo brought it up. Too many of these in the air at one time might cause problems.

Youwant that many have a friend up.

I don't want to fly them, I want to shoot at them. I rarely ever fly bombers.

If anything even 9 is too much for the average player.

you haven't even come up with any theories to support your position, let alone having any solid reason to pick a specific number.

But I my 262 gets it's rockets you can have this

This proves your only real motive is your fear of not getting what you want before something else is worked on.

262s would be more useful with large formations to shoot down. And who needs rockets on a 262 to kill buffs?   

[muzik]

What are the odds of system overload with that many moving objects in visual range?

...That's 768 bombers. That's more than the USAAF hit Dresden

...The AI gunners would number 4,608 ... or more.
Even dummied down that's a lot of potential lead slinging.

I did consider this. It is a very real possibility.

First, it's not too frequent that you see 12 guys get together for one raid. It happens, but not excessively. With this idea in play, you can bet your pink skirt that it will happen for exactly the reason you alluded to.

But what makes you so sure such a large number would want to fly the bombers. I'm guessing the bigger part of the attraction is going to be shooting them down. Either way it comes down to this.

As with everything in this game, the novelty will wear off eventually. So the initial desire to have those massive raids may very well weed out those whose PCs wont handle it and they will decline repeating the exercise again.

Other than that, Htc could implement a similar restriction I seem to remember from AW days. They could limit the total number of bomber formations at a time or per hour. They controlled/stopped spit usage this way. In this case it would be a constant restriction on how many were available.

No military in the world had unlimited resources. Our resources could be limited based on how much damage the strats (or a new bomber factory like the old spit factories) have sustained. Normal bomber allowance per country/per hour could be 50 at any particular time.

It could be first come first serve or players could be allocated slots. Or it could be a combination of the perk idea and the resource restrictions.

There are plenty of possibilities. I don't know which would work best and I would be glad to hammer it out with anyone who has the knowledge to fill in details I don't have. Saying it can't happen or shouldn't happen is shall we say... I better not. 

I do know these are all easily programmed solutions and I believe that the novelty will wear off after a while and the bomber pilots will go back to the more common smaller groups.

If they don't, then it means the idea is too fun don't it?     In that case there would need to be a counter balancing act. Every thing done in this game can be counter balanced in some way if the will is there.

As for the computing capabilities, I don't know if it this is possible but maybe a feature could be added that reduced the detail on bombers for low end PCs. Example, when they come in range, they register as a large formation and automatically lower details for those objects for any player who has the appropriate check box enabled.

I don't think it will be an overload on the servers.  The servers, if I remember, can handle much more than what they show as maximum capacity. The servers are just swapping data for the most part. Could be wrong though. If so, back to the resource limitation.

The AI gunners would number 4,608 ... or more.
Even dummied down that's a lot of potential lead slinging.

Are you suggesting that 4,608 guns would be firing all at one time?    As Gyrene stated, they have limited range and don't fire until a target enters it.

I say take baby steps (if any). Go from element to flight (3 to 6). If AI guns are considered, keep
it at element level (3).

I say you have other motives for objecting. 6 isn't even worth the effort and provides not a single one of the benefits I have suggested.

I have no problem with baby steps. So If they must be considered, go for 10 large formations (24) at any particular time. Hell, if that's too much, I'd even go for 5 formations of 24 at any one time.

[muzik]

Earl,

You are a professional pilot. The majority of the players in this game have no patience for flying by the book, hence they cannot be trained even if they had the coordination to hold a nice formation.

Gyrene thinks I personally find it too difficult. I don't. It is tiresome but it is rare to find others with the patience for it. And I really could care less that they don't have it. I'm not trying to force it on them. I'm only suggesting a way to make it a more common sight.

I fly fighters mostly and I keep a sharp watch on my six, so staying in tight formation with another fighter is not high on my priorities especially absent "real peripheral vision".

Peripheral vision and scanning for attackers are the key difficulty in bombers. Flying form is not a problem for a pilot, it gets harder when you are pilot, gunner and bombardier.

I don't believe pilots should be so taxed in game so I don't agree that training is the answer.

[muzik]

HT set up bomber formations as three plane elements.

What is your fixation on 3 and 6 all about? Is it only because you believe PCs and servers cant handle it?

Any other reasons why those are better numbers than 24?

[Arlo]

What is your fixation on 3 and 6 all about? Is it only because you believe PCs and servers cant handle it?

Any other reasons why those are better numbers than 24?

What is your fixation with 24? My perspective was made clear when I illustrated a sky full object overkill with but a few grievers er players. Why can' this idea be explored conservatively?

[gyrene81]

i think the new .wingman command is working with the bombers. just got off the lwma and it looked like some bish and rooks were experimenting with it. 12 b-17s are a hand full for a single attacker, even with 30mm. 

[Arlo]

i think the new .wingman command is working with the bombers. just got off the lwma and it looked like some bish and rooks were experimenting with it. 12 b-17s are a hand full for a single attacker, even with 30mm. 

[gyrene81]

ya i know...

Added a new autopilot mode that attempts to maintain the same relative position to your designated wingman (using the .wingman dot command) when it is first engaged.  It is not intended through any hard maneuvers and it has a maximum range of 1000 yards.  The default key for this command is Control W.  NOTE: This function may be unmapped in your keymap requiring you to manually map it.  It is under the flight section of the key mapper listed as Autopilot Wingman Mode. 

just imagine, take off, auto climb, .wingman <player>, get into gun position and wait. now the attacker(s) have more than 1 gunner to deal with.

[muzik]

What is your fixation with 24?

I thought it was pretty clear.


1. A better representation of mass bombing in ww2.
2. A better bombing experience.
3. A better fighter experience.
4. More challenge than 3 bombers can provide attackers.
5. More survivability than 3 bombers.
6. More chance of success for newb pilots who may get frustrated with the learning curve of ANY aspect of this game.
7. A better first impression for new players.
8. Something unequaled in any other MMO.
9. A player multiplier, that increases fun and action for everyone. Which just so happens to be 10x more beneficial for late night.
10. Probably a few I forgot.

My perspective was made clear when I illustrated a sky full object overkill with but a few grievers er players. Why can' this idea be explored conservatively?

No your perspective was that it MIGHT NOT be possible because your theory it could not be modeled in a way that would work on PCs or the server.

I addressed your theory with potential solutions and yet you returned to your original vague argument that three is better.

Why is three better?

Is it more realistic?
Is it more fun to attack 3 than 24?
Is it more challenging?
Is it impossible to implement 24?

I could go on but I don't think you can answer any of my questions truthfully or with enough facts to back it up. The only good theory I can find is the possibility that it will overwhelm some players PCs.


Yes, three was an element. 3 was also a suicide mission, and rarely, if ever happened. If  you're going to point out the facts, don't forget to tell the whole story.

...a sky full object overkill with but a few grievers er players. Why can' this idea be explored conservatively?

So bomber pilots are grievers?

I Didn't I just suggest a conservative alternative?  5 formations of 24 allotted to an entire arena is too radical?

[muzik]

ya i know...
just imagine, take off, auto climb, .wingman <player>, get into gun position and wait. now the attacker(s) have more than 1 gunner to deal with.

Tell me more.

[gyrene81]

interesting...looks like there is some glitching going on with the new wingman setting.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,350459.0.html

sounds as if maybe the command is trying to force a speed setting as well as alt...that could explain the jitters people are experiencing. i have to wonder how it would work if everyone set their manifold pressure and rpms the same.

i need to find someone to wing with in heavy bombers and do some experimenting...