bomber formations

[Arlo]

Well then I'd say that were this change to take place, 12 would be a reasonable limit.

Six could be just as reasonable a limit. So could three.

Will this bring in more players or will it merely fill the sky with bomber drones and require fewer?

[gyrene81]

I know you read the op Arlo...ya just never know.

[Arlo]

I know you read the op Arlo...ya just never know.

 

[muzik]

I'm still feelin 24.

It's big enough that one guy can feel like a force by himself. 12's not bad.

24's big enough that it would take 6 good fighter pilots to wipe him out. It's not common to find 6 guys hunting buffs together last I saw. Who knows, maybe it starts a new trend...schwarms. Then counter schwarms.

Consider this also. If one guy only has 12 bombers and we continue to see a lot of the same lone wolf strat runs we see today, then 3 decent fighters could wipe him out easily. It's not hard to find 3 or 4 fighters in a group, so it's fair to say the chances are good that we start to see a lot of buff hunting going on.

We already know that 3 bombers are easy meat. 4 or 5 won't be that much more of a challenge. 6, 7  a tad bumpier. So all it takes is knocking out 4 or 5 to dramatically reduce the risk involved in taking this formation out. If 3 attackers take out one each on the first pass and second pass, they have a great chance of finishing the job.

At 24, attackers have to make more passes through more bombers. A much higher risk level that results in a long hard fight before it gets easy.

For those who really enjoy squad ops, 24 is more likely to encourage a small squad of guys to fly together for a buff hunt. 12 would only require/encourage 3 or 4 guys.

If these little hunting parties become a trend, we might see more escorts in groups.

24 is better for off peak/late night hours. I've been on when there is virtually no air activity. At those times, it would only take one or two guys doing bomb runs to keep me entertained in the absence of good fighter v fighter engagements. With 12, I could possibly finish off half on his way to target, rearm myself and finish the other half on his way back. Not likely with 24. That would probably piss him off and he might leave. If he survives and we both end up with successful sorties, he may just laugh it off. Win/win.

I know it's not uncommon to see a half dozen guys get together and fly a bombing mission together, but usually you are more likely to get 3 or 4.

4 guys, 96 birds. Now it starts to look like a strategic bombing mission.

Six could be just as reasonable a limit. So could three.

Will this bring in more players or will it merely fill the sky with bomber drones and require fewer?

Suggesting no change at all before you asked your question suggests you don't want to hear that it is feasible.

I enjoy this game as a combat game, but that doesnt mean I want to play it for another 10 years exactly as it is now. New airplanes now and then don't change the game or the tactics and challenges to play it. I want to experience different aspects of air combat and I am not the only one. It will impress someone. Will it be the deciding factor, maybe, maybe not.

It certainly wont require fewer, that's why the suggestion to change strat point accrual. Any number of changes could help maintain the need for bomber participation.

[Zacherof]

Actually, a good 163 pilot ckd get 5-6. No offense but in the MA; such ahigh number otero es is just too much. Youwant that many have a friend up. I can use in the SE arena's tho. If anything even 9 is too much for the average player.



But I my 262 gets it's rockets you can have this

[muzik]

No offense but in the MA; such ahigh number otero es is just too much.

Well let's hear it, what makes it too much? Give me your theoretical scenario that got you to that conclusion.

[Zacherof]

Well let's hear it, what makes it too much? Give me your theoretical scenario that got you to that conclusion.

sorry for the poor spelling. Took a much needed map.

Idk about other but I LOVE killing bombers. The more the merrier in my eyes. But is 24 really needed? I'm sure I could get atleast 5-7. That would further prove the vulnerability of bombers vs fighters. 163's would make it easier.


On the bomber end, You don't need a bunch of bombers to do alot of damage. Hell I've done 25k I. 17's and I'm terrible at bombers.

Of feasible point would be a massive mission to the strats and SE.

My problems lie with 24 bombers. Too much. Maybe 9, I'd prefer 6. 4 people to constitute a squadron.


It's just seems(it's already been pointed out) your trying to recreate the bombing campaign of the ETO.

[jeffdn]

Were this to go into effect it'd probably be a good time to implement a speed limit of sorts... At max cruise, you have a tight formation of combat boxes, at military power you're all over the place.

[Zacherof]

That would make sence

[muzik]

I'm sure I could get atleast 5-7. That would further prove the vulnerability of bombers vs fighters.

First you haven't told me, in your theoretical version of my idea, if you assume auto gunners. If there are auto gunners, how hard would it be to take out 5 or 7? I don't know that and neither do you. As Gyrene and I discussed, it might be similar to flying in and out of field ack. Field ack is easy enough to take out, but it's NOT MOVING and you're not going to attempt to hit gunners, that would be ridiculous. Your only option would be to take out the bombers as quickly as possible to reduce your risk and improve your odds each time you go in.

My asnwer to your theory is, you may get that many if AI gunners accuracy sucked or with no AI at all. Or you may end up with a smoking engine, PW, fire, etc. ect.

But if it is that easy, 12 or less bombers makes increasing the size of the formation almost pointless. If it only takes 2 guys to finish the group then the survivability aspect is gone.

That would further prove the vulnerability of bombers vs fighters. 163's would make it easier.

   At what point did I say I was trying to disprove the vulnerability of bombers? The whole point of adding more was to mitigate that fact, AND to add something fun to the game.

On the bomber end, You don't need a bunch of bombers to do alot of damage. Hell I've done 25k I. 17's and I'm terrible at bombers.

At no point was the idea ever to "do more damage." In fact one of the biggest problems of the idea was that they would do too much damage. That's why we discussed a way to make the strats eat up the additional firepower and provide a need for bomber guys to make more runs on strats. Now this is the second sentence you used to advertise your success in game. Your motives are starting to sound suspicious.  

My problems lie with 24 bombers. Too much. Maybe 9, I'd prefer 6. 4 people to constitute a squadron.

Again, you haven't provided any other reason why 24 is too much. Is the argument above all you can offer? Why 6? Why 4? What on earth would make 4 a choice at all? 6 even? That wouldn't even be worth to programming time.

It's just seems(it's already been pointed out) your trying to recreate the bombing campaign of the ETO.

I didn't realize I hid it so well.

Um, yea. That's what I'm doing. Is there something wrong with trying to add something seen in the war, novelty and entertainment to the game?

The purpose of the game is fun; THAT's what I'm trying to create. 4,6 or 9 wouldn't even be worth the effort or provide the benefits I am suggesting.

[Zacherof]

Why should bombers get AI gunners? Why not just buzz a cv?

And a good chunk of players font know how/where to attack bombers.
Not bagging but I know how2where to strike, and frequently hit all three planes in 1 pass, flaming 1-2.

Back again to the kills. Would killing drones be registered as a kill as it currently is?
Btw I honestyl wouldn't care less if it was added. I fly against hordes for a reason:kills, lots of kills.


But why would you suggest AI gunners for he whole formation?

Would bostons get the same deal?

[gyrene81]

Why should bombers get AI gunners? Why not just buzz a cv?

think about it...with a large formation, unless htc allows more than 1 player to join, there isn't an effective way to defend. with a.i. gunners like we have on ships and airfields, defending against multiple attackers becomes more possible, the bombers aren't just easy mode targets. if they program the a.i. gunners the way i've seen it done, survivability of the attackers would be much better than flying through the middle of a cv group and slightly better than flying through field ack.

And a good chunk of players font know how/where to attack bombers.
Not bagging but I know how2where to strike, and frequently hit all three planes in 1 pass, flaming 1-2.

you need more practice...

Back again to the kills. Would killing drones be registered as a kill as it currently is?

kind of a silly question don't you think?

But why would you suggest AI gunners for he whole formation?

why not? every bomber has gun mounts, shouldn't they all shoot or are they just there for decoration?

Would bostons get the same deal?

if it has calibrated bomb sight, it should...unless you have a good reason to the contrary.

[Arlo]

Imagine a squadron of 12 guys wanting to up 24 bombers each for a mass raid. That's 288 bombers.
What are the odds of system overload with that many moving objects in visual range? What about
a maxed out squad of 32 players? That's 768 bombers. That's more than the USAAF hit Dresden
with in 4 separate raids. Don't think prime-timers would try this? I anticipate even higher. Even if
the server and individual player pcs can handle that many planes within visual range at once, each
B-17 or B-24 has 6 gun positions. The AI gunners would number 4,608 ... or more.
Even dummied down that's a lot of potential lead slinging. Sounds like Blood Dragons on steroids
(minus the maneuverability - which wouldn't be required with such a flying aaa carpet).

http://www.gonzoville.com/games/an-ackstar-is-born/

I say take baby steps (if any). Go from element to flight (3 to 6). If AI guns are considered, keep
it at element level (3).

[gyrene81]

Imagine a squadron of 12 guys wanting to up 24 bombers each for a mass raid. That's 288 bombers.
What are the odds of system overload with that many moving objects in visual range? What about
a maxed out squad of 32 players? That's 768 bombers. That's more than the USAAF hit Dresden
with in 4 separate raids. Don't think prime-timers would try this? I anticipate even higher. Even if
the server and individual player pcs can handle that many planes within visual range at once, each
B-17 or B-24 has 6 gun positions. The AI gunners would number 4,608 ... or more.
Even dummied down that's a lot of potential lead slinging. Sounds like Blood Dragons on steroids
(minus the maneuverability - which wouldn't be required with such a flying aaa carpet).

http://www.gonzoville.com/games/an-ackstar-is-born/

I say take baby steps (if any). Go from element to flight (3 to 6). If AI guns are considered, keep
it at element level (3).

not that i personally haven't considered the same ramifications however, i think charging incremental perk points for each added box will nullify long term excessive usage after people burn through their points. and they will burn through their points, with or without auto gunners. Muzik seems to have some other idea for control, as yet unvoiced but i'm sure if enough people harp on it, he will spill the beans. the perk point system would be easier to implement without having to reprogram everything. the possibility of system overload is the same as it is now. htc has repeatedly stated the servers aren't even close to being taxed. player system overload could become an issue, if 200+ plane formations were encountered.

did you ever play warbirds? as i mentioned before, the bombers there have auto gunners. they aren't laser accurate at 1000yds, get in close to the formation and they are like field ack. and only the guns that have los on you will fire at you, not all of the guns on each bomber.

if large formations were implemented, in increments of 3 plane boxes, unless htc allows more than 1 person to join the formation as a gunner, the only chance of survival for the formation is auto guns. even then, 3 guys with 152s or 262s could make short work of them.

of course, at first, there will be a lot of base rolling going on. 1 man bomber missions on bases, with hordes defending. there would be a bit of chaos going on. and i still don't think the idea would have the appeal to outsiders that Muzik thinks it would, but we will never know for sure unless it happens.

[Zacherof]

If AI isn't applied, the bombers will show thier weakness(if the right attacks are applied) anyone here worry what would happen if 999 got his hands on these???

Perk incriminating would have to be a must.

For example of how bombers are fodder,
Tour 161
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/players.php

tour 160
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/players.php


And I suck