Best Single Engine fighter-Bomber(Prop Driven)

[J.A.W.]

It doesn't matter as the Americans found 60+ German a/c while the Tempest found none. JAW is a little short on details for the  rest of the 2TAF.

I was referring to the Tempest Wing [122] a single unit within 2nd TAF, the 2nd were also operating thousands of other tactical aircraft, Typhoons/Spitfires/Mosquitos/Mustangs & etc..

The Tempests did find, & shoot down the Ar 234, Me 262, He 162, & Ta 152,
the P-38s did not.. But the RAF did not count GA claims = A2A..

There are good histories available, which give daily ops returns & likewise the US 9th TAF were flying thousands of aircraft on tactical ops too..

The point being that the LW was not grounded, or absent - as suggested..

They did put nearly a thousand strafing aircraft over Allied lines on 1-1-45..

[GScholz]

I don't dispute that the AS is a faster version.  It's just that I find the G-2 and G-6 already decent vs. P-51's, and for late war, we use 109K's in the mix.

I like my G-6 just fine.

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And my G-14.

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At 30k they're not decent, they're struggling. Only superior skill will let you win over a Pony at that alt in a G-6 or G-14, or if you can trick them to follow you down to more favorable altitudes.



Nice screens btw. 

[J.A.W.]

According to Don Caldwell's JG 26 history, the weather on 4th April
1945 meant no ops were flown by that unit,
 & likely that coincides with no A2A claims by the Tempest Wing that day,
 - if they were up flying in the same local conditions..

[Brooke]

At 30k they're not decent, they're struggling. Only superior skill will let you win over a Pony at that alt in a G-6 or G-14, or if you can trick them to follow you down to more favorable altitudes.



Nice screens btw. 

G-6's outclimb and outturn P-51's at 30k.  Also, since everything struggles up there, you don't get extended turning fights.  Almost all of the fights that start up there involve someone diving out or pulling a hard diving turn or hard split s, so the fights rarely stay up high.  In scenarios with G-6's vs. P-51's, P-47's, and P-38's and fights starting at 30-34k, I think that the G-6's have done fine overall (not just among superior pilots, but average over all pilots).

[Ardy123]

G-6's outclimb and outturn P-51's at 30k.  Also, since everything struggles up there, you don't get extended turning fights.  Almost all of the fights that start up there involve someone diving out or pulling a hard diving turn or hard split s, so the fights rarely stay up high.  In scenarios with G-6's vs. P-51's, P-47's, and P-38's and fights starting at 30-34k, I think that the G-6's have done fine overall (not just among superior pilots, but average over all pilots).

Brooke, in RL I believe that the missions often had somewhere in the 1000+ planes, we don't have that many players, nor do the arenas ever have that many members in one arena, so how accurately are the scenarios scaled down?

[DaveBB]

I remember watching an interview with a P-51 pilot on Wings, and him saying that while escorting B-17s at 25k, he looked up and saw little specks above him.  He knew they were 109s, and went on to say that he couldn't compete with them at those altitudes. 

Sorry I dont have any more info than that on the interview.  Maybe I'll run across that Wings episode again.

[Brooke]

Brooke, in RL I believe that the missions often had somewhere in the 1000+ planes, we don't have that many players, nor do the arenas ever have that many members in one arena, so how accurately are the scenarios scaled down?

It depends on what you are modeling.  In those 1000+ raids, the fighting generally was not hundreds on hundreds in one big melee but rather several nearly independent fights at portions of the overall air armada.  A couple of those regions is more akin to what we model.

Also, though, not all of the fighting in Europe was 1000 US planes.  Many were a lot smaller than that.  Scenarios like Battle Over Germany and Der Grosse Schlag had around 150 bomber aircraft up at one time.

[Brooke]

What a portion of that looks like:

[Widewing]

The problem is that the 109G-6 does 370 mph on WEP at 30k. A G-6/AS could cruise at 400 mph on MIL at that alt, and on WEP it would be a wee bit faster than a P-51D.

The P-51B can cruise along at 440 mph at 30k in MIL power.... Pretty sporty.

[Widewing]

G-6's outclimb and outturn P-51's at 30k.  Also, since everything struggles up there, you don't get extended turning fights.  Almost all of the fights that start up there involve someone diving out or pulling a hard diving turn or hard split s, so the fights rarely stay up high.  In scenarios with G-6's vs. P-51's, P-47's, and P-38's and fights starting at 30-34k, I think that the G-6's have done fine overall (not just among superior pilots, but average over all pilots).

The 109G-6 neither outclimbs nor out-turns a P-51B at 30k. It has a very small advantage in climb over the P-51D. The B model's V-1650-3 was engineered for high altitude, and it quite easily out-performed the D model at 30k. At 30k the 109G-6 can't quite manage 1,400 fpm, while the P-51B can just exceed 2,000 fpm. At that altitude, the 109G-6 simply lacks the power to sustain maneuvering without losing big chunks of altitude. The 109G-6 faces the same issues against the P-47D-25 at 30k. The Jug is still making sea level HP at 30k. It can dump flaps to maneuver, where doing so in the 109G-6 means an unwanted stall if any attempt is made to match the Jug.

If I were to pick a fighter for high altitude bomber escort, I'd pick the P-51B. The Spitfire Mk.XIV has similar speed at 30k, but lack the legs to go more than a couple of sectors.

[J.A.W.]

From Air Enthusiast/48, P. 31 - Re:  Air Superiority by John T Smith;

"It is nearly impossible for ground forces to operate effectively without adequate air cover. Although the LW was restricted by the Allies overwhelming
superiority in numbers, the Allies were never able to achieve true air superiority.

The Germans were able to impose losses on the Allies to the very end.
The German light flak being especially effective.

In the Gulf War the Allies obtained air superiority within several days, but true air superiority was never achieved against the Germans."

[MiloMorai]

The P-51B can cruise along at 440 mph at 30k in MIL power.... Pretty sporty.

Yes, I need some fertilizer.

[Widewing]

From Air Enthusiast/48, P. 31 - Re:  Air Superiority by John T Smith;

"It is nearly impossible for ground forces to operate effectively without adequate air cover. Although the LW was restricted by the Allies overwhelming
superiority in numbers, the Allies were never able to achieve true air superiority.

The Germans were able to impose losses on the Allies to the very end.
The German light flak being especially effective.

In the Gulf War the Allies obtained air superiority within several days, but true air superiority was never achieved against the Germans."

I think Mr. Smith fails to understand what air superiority is. It has nothing to do with "light flak". Moreover, it is easy to obtain brief local air superiority. The Luftwaffe could do that right up until the surrender. However, it was very local and usually very brief.

A good definition of air superiority is: That level of control in the air space of one air force over another that permits the conduct of air operations of said air force at a given time and place without significant interference by an opposing air force.

The Gulf War was a case of air supremacy. By April of 1945, the Allies were in a position of air supremacy. The Luftwaffe was, essentially, combat ineffective. The handful of aircraft that could be put in the air was completely inconsequential. Not even amounting to minor annoyance in the scope of what the Allies put up daily.

[Widewing]

Yes, I need some fertilizer.

In game...

[J.A.W.]

Ww, Smith quotes USAF Gen W.Momyer in his article [P.18]..

"The most precious thing an air force can provide
 an army or navy is air superiority, since this gives to surface forces the ability to carry out their plan of action without interference from an enemy air force. Without air superiority, tactical flexibility is lost."

& Smith adds,

" Against a resourceful & well equipped enemy, air superiority may never be finally achieved or may have to be fought for again & again."


For M.M., here is the RAF Mustang III Merlin /3 powered data sheet..

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/mustang-III-ads-3.jpg