F4U-4 vs. other low ENY

[RotBaron]

You can honestly say that even an A6M2 with an alt advantage over your F4U-4 has every advantage in the fight, so what's your point? Learn how to deal with high cons.

Fixed.

Uhhh, I used every category Gonzo offered, I explained it in detail in my OP. I didn't try to doctor anything. How is that cherry-picking???

[Lusche]

Lusche: maybe you have the data on the -4 usage? I'd bet it is a hangar queen and therefore have to ask why is that? ~24perks is why??? hmmm not so sure there.

To answer that, I would have to know what would you consider to be a hangar queen?
Yes, Usage is relatively low because it's perked. But same goes for the Tempest and the 262 as well. The Tempest has about the same number of kills as the -4 has so you could argue it's a hangar queen too.
And as the Tempest isn't that good as a turner and 'only' fast... maybe it's time to unperk it as well? I mean, at MA alts the LA-7 is so much better... 

[Oldman731]

Ki84 is the best fighter in game....all things considered when it comes to being a fighter.

I agree with this.

- oldman

[Saxman]

Uhhh, I used every category Gonzo offered, I explained it in detail in my OP. I didn't try to doctor anything. How is that cherry-picking???

Because you're focusing on precisely TWO PERFORMANCE CATEGORIES and saying "This plane is clearly inferior" while ignoring that there's other factors involved just as, if not MORE, important.

[Zacherof]

One must also consider low speed handling

[Saxman]

In no particular order, ALL of these factor into the capabilities of a fighter:

Low speed handling
High speed handling
Low-altitude Performance
High-altitude Performance
Durability
Firepower
Ballistics
Gun Platform
Acceleration
Top Speed
Rate of Climb
Zoom Capability/E Retention
Visibility
Range
Ordinance Load

That's at LEAST fifteen points, allowing for anything I've forgotten. Sustained climb and max speed are TWO of them.

[Debrody]

In no particular order, ALL of these factor into the capabilities of a fighter:

Low speed handling
High speed handling
Low-altitude Performance
High-altitude Performance
Durability
Firepower
Ballistics
Gun Platform
Acceleration
Top Speed
Rate of Climb
Zoom Capability/E Retention
Visibility
Range
Ordinance Load

That's at LEAST fifteen points, allowing for anything I've forgotten. Sustained climb and max speed are TWO of them.

True, but some can be compensated with experience, see the 109's tater cannon's ballistics.

The 4-hog is the jack of all trades fighter. It might not be the best in everything, but speaking about the overall performance, its the best WW2 fighter, by far. Really has no weak points and can play every other plane's own game. The only thing that comes close is tha La7, but only in fighter mode and only under 9K.

[RotBaron]

In no particular order, ALL of these factor into the capabilities of a fighter:

Low speed handling
High speed handling
Low-altitude Performance
High-altitude Performance
Durability
Firepower
Ballistics
Gun Platform
Acceleration
Top Speed
Rate of Climb
Zoom Capability/E Retention
Visibility
Range
Ordinance Load

That's at LEAST fifteen points, allowing for anything I've forgotten. Sustained climb and max speed are TWO of them.

You've told me I'm not listening...but:

I've included many, actually almost all except for zoom in my OP and my basis for saying what I have. If you could point me toward something that could quantify zoom in some objective way, I'd be happy to consider it.

Also, visibility is somewhat subjective. It depends on the players monitor's resolution. I get drastically different views from cockpit using different resolutions, so much so that when I flew the Ki-84 all the time I wouldn't run my lcd in native.

I get it, I get that it's a great all around and overall fighter. I just disagree that it should be perked, at least at ~22-24  when something like the La-7 isn't at all. I'm not sure what situation anyone could argue it beats the La-7, at what game, a full flaps out low speed fight? Why would an La fight that fight? One objective is to force the guy to fight your fight, what can the -4 force the La7 to do co-alt co-E?

[RotBaron]

To answer that, I would have to know what would you consider to be a hangar queen?
Yes, Usage is relatively low because it's perked. But same goes for the Tempest and the 262 as well. The Tempest has about the same number of kills as the -4 has so you could argue it's a hangar queen too.
And as the Tempest isn't that good as a turner and 'only' fast... maybe it's time to unperk it as well? I mean, at MA alts the LA-7 is so much better... 

I would say a hangar queen would be one that sits in the hangar as a choice ~9/10. Of course it's a LW ftr so the data has to accord, but if it's getting used off of CVs at less than ~10% I'd say it fits the description. For me it doesn't have to have dust on it. I see more 410's than I do -4's, and I hear the 410 called hangar queen regularly.

I don't know much about the Tempest, flew for about 2nd or 3rd time ever just yesterday, can't speak about that. Whjat I can comment on is,  I see the 1C used much more frequently.

[RotBaron]

I agree with this.

- oldman

The quote was from Ink that Ki-84 is best fighter in the game.

While I really can't comment about that, what I will say is this is what I'm referring to; being a fighter plane. Although this is the about the third time I've said it, ppl keep using ord as a basis.  I can't think  of any reason I'd jabo from a perk plane.

[RotBaron]

Because you're focusing on precisely TWO PERFORMANCE CATEGORIES and saying "This plane is clearly inferior" while ignoring that there's other factors involved just as, if not MORE, important.

I looked at all four aircraft through their envelope provided by HT and Gonzoville's charts.

Actually I looked at more than four, but felt keeping it simpler made better sense.

[RotBaron]

I'm going to go fly it for awhile, a lot this tour. I'll revisit with my results after a couple of weeks.

But my suspicion is, I'm going to find it's a great mid to high alt fighter and that is where it dictates the fight, conversely down low I imagine I'm going to be egressing for alt a fair amount after a few slashes or turns. We shall see.

However, it occurred to me that maybe the perk cost is a good thing, I find Knights rarely have the greater #'s when I'm on for whatever reason, and that I can often get in the -4 for 14-18 perks, so IDK, maybe I'm defeating a situational benefit to myself.

What truly has me baffled is if it is as awesome as most have purported and contended here, why do I rarely see one?


I'll follow the thread, but I'm done arguing about it one way or the other until I can say with confidence is it as awesome as many of you say or otherwise.

 

[BaldEagl]

Included:

Climb Rate (military)
Climb Rate (WEP)
Speed (military)
Speed (WEP)

Did not include:

Acceleration
Control Surface Effectivness
Engine HP
Engine Torque
Guns Ballistics
Guns Hitting Power
Guns ROF
Drag Coefficient
Roll Rate
Turn Rate (no flaps)
Turn Rate (flaps)
Turn Radius (no flaps)
Turn Radius (flaps)

And you can make a clear analysis?  You sir are an aeronotic genius!

[Widewing]

I get it, I get that it's a great all around and overall fighter. I just disagree that it should be perked, at least at ~22-24  when something like the La-7 isn't at all. I'm not sure what situation anyone could argue it beats the La-7, at what game, a full flaps out low speed fight? Why would an La fight that fight? One objective is to force the guy to fight your fight, what can the -4 force the La7 to do co-alt co-E?

If you remove the perk cost from the F4U-4, that is all you'll see in the MA, except for the occasional F4U-1C. Why fly a -1D? The -4 offers the same ordnance load-out with best in game balanced performance.

I'll tell you from 12 years of Aces High, as a player and Trainer, with many, many duels in the F4U-4 against everything.... Equal pilots:The F4U-4 beats the La-7. Down low and especially above 10k. Below 8k, the La-7 can run. But, Co-E, Co-Alt, the F4U-4 has more advantages than disadvantages.

[bozon]

What truly has me baffled is if it is as awesome as most have purported and contended here, why do I rarely see one?

BECAUSE it is perked!
meaning - objective achieved, perks population control work.

People hoard thousands of perks and are afraid to use them for some reason. It is not about the perk cost at all - if it was perked 20 or 40 points makes little difference, people just have a mental block about spending their perks. At the same time people really like to kill perked planes to rob their owner from a few measly perks...

Ki84 is the best fighter in game....all things considered when it comes to being a fighter.

In a duel maybe. In the MA a high F4U (especially a -4) worries me a lot more than a high Ki84, and I am in a friggin' mosquito. I will never get to engage a -4 on my terms or even terms, unless it is already locked in engagement with someone else. The KI84 will have to dump most of its E advantage to engage me and I do not find them any more difficult in a fight than a Spit16. I will be a lot more aggressive against a plane I can disengage from, and there is absolutely no way I will get any breathing space against the -4.

Duels have a very different flow and usually favor the better turning plane and the better floating plane that pushes the AH FM to "uncomfortable" zones.