Anatomy of the Base Capture

[CAV]

As a old retired Army guy, I see one BIG BUG in the Base Capture/win the Map system used right now in AH............

And that is unlimited supply of planes and tanks at each base. If I am a mission maker, and if I can get the players on my side to join, I can put up a attack with a 100 P-51's in it, from one base.
And win or fail I don't care how many planes get shot down... I can do this all day long,  I always have a unlimited number of planes to use. Same thing on defense as long I can keep hangers up I have a unlimited supply of planes, how many bombs are drop on my base or that is going on it the factories, I care little about, I never run out of toys to play with.

So I'm back to mission planner... I limitless number planes, the defense has unlimited planes.... as long as the hangers are up... So why would "Win the war players" not drop the FH/VH's?

The supply system in AH isn't very good for battles or win wars. One of the other games out there on the internet is "WW2 On-line" goes about this in another way.... limited number of playing peaces (soldiers,tanks ,planes, ships)
It looks like each base has a set number of playing units, and each units down is tracked after it is killed.

From their site;

Supply
 
When you spawn a vehicle, a ticket is created requesting a Replacement in 4.5 hours. This ticket is deleted when your vehicle is returned home or Manually Supplied/Oversupplied

Replacement time is lengthened if your factories sustain damage
 
Replacement tickets will never oversupply a vehicle

I don't think AH needs to go that far. But maybe a system that each base, by size has XXX number supply points, each tank/plane/"things" on the base has a resupply cost. So I take off and die.... points go away. I land, points goes back to resupply points pool for the base. I bomb the base it uses resupply point to fix it, I bomb factories, less points goes to each field, Take out trucks and trains bases don't get supplies.

So now I am the mission planner....

I hit factories...
I cut the base off from resupply, ... (kill trucks)
I bomb the base.... use up resupply points

Now maybe to take the base........ I just need to furball it to death. 

[shoresroad]

HTC has given us all the tools to play this game many ways. It's too bad most have settled on only just one or two of those ways to play.

I'm all for anything that encourages but doesn't force diversity of play.

[Hap]

2. - How has base capturing changed over time as a response to changes in the game by Hitech?

In 2002 when I began, it was common for Tiffies to bomb and strafe the town, bomb the vh, and Tiffies with rockets to deack the field.  Sometimes, 110's were the preferred town killers.  La7's escorted goons.

Slam banging hangars reflexively was not the rule of the day.

Today, I don't see why the same method would not work, be if buffs, 110's, or Tiffies or other canon and ord rides on the town.

My guess is the new crop of Generals, on the Bish side since that's the experience I have, bust hangars because they can and/or think doing so helps the capture.

It sure doesn't help the "fun" quotient.

Well, that's about all I can recollect of the days of Fairz and Rockstar3.

[bustr]

Since you cannot force anyone in this game to do anything. Everything has to be simple, except for the agreements between individuals and groups. But, you can only lead them with a promise of a carrot, rather than aim them visa a threat from the stick. Try using the stick and your mission becomes only you or you become a squad of one.

So for the rules based guys who like sticks and carrots you are SOL with this game outside of the SEA. Greed is not always the best motivator. It promotes the worst behaviors in the morally undisciplined especially on the Internet.

So what are you left with in this game?

1. - Furball
2. - Base Capture
3. - Tank Spawn Camping.
4. - Bombing or defending the strats.
5. - Fighting and sinking CV groups.

All of these activities can be made objectives in Accomplishment Missions resulting in silly names in lights, stars next to names and perks(bribes).

If it were possible an adjunct to the process would be the polar opposing accomplishment process to get the same rewards for organizing and smashing accomplishment missions. Hitech would be the spy programmer in chief. And the polar opposing accomplishment missions would respond proportionally to registered accomplishment missions. You would never know where the enemy accomplishment mission was launching from or attacking. Just that your party would accept the fighters or GV assigned, and you would be auto launched within striking distance of the accomplishment mission's objective. In the case of GV's, Vehical Hanger availability dependent.

Bottom line, everyone knows a cadre of players would wait for the darbar to develop, and bring late war uber rides and perk planes to crap on these missions. Doesn't mean the Mission Master can't recruit his own cadre of perk pilots to cover his arse if it came to that. As stated earlier. Greed is a powerful motivator without mechanisms to limit it. Welcome to Aces High.

PS, I would expect the accomplishment mission menu to be stocked with missions using late war rides so players wouldn't be pushed to far out of their comfort zone. After all, how many times do you want to up in He111 supported by 109E and Stuka just to have a muppet land all 20 of you with his 262. Then again this kind of gets at the heart of game play in the LWMA. Fear of a hopeless defeat from swinging sticks that will never have a carrot. And why hoards of sticks exist to counter that fear.

The unintended consequence of self fulfilling prophecy:

"Why else do weaker players exist but to entertain my whims?"

"I'm never gonna be as good as him, so 30 of us is just about right to send his uber kester to the tower if he gets in our way."

Two different sticks, same carrot in the end. 30 happy players or one happy player. It's all about the illusion of the stick you are offering to the players to swing that feeds their greed. The carrot is always the same.

[whiteman]

1. - What is a base capture in Aces High?
one way to create combat

2. - How has base capturing changed over time as a response to changes in the game by Hitech?
When I first started in 2006, towns were smaller and as being dropped on the Bish when I started and it was all about captures from i saw. Also no white flag and 100% town down to capture. I don't see near as many NOE 110 raids anymore.

4. - How do you view base capturing as a game activity from a cost benefit return related to this game's future?
Necessary, most younger/newer players need a sense of achievement other than dog fighting all day. Captures are small victories that lead to winning the war which is the ultimate goal of most these players.

5. - Do your views on base capture reflect only your feelings, or an understanding of the broader $14.95 paying community?
community

7. - What are different ways to take bases you have taken part in that were successful?
noe 110's to wipe out town and with a few fighters to get any uppers and a few goons. Mass noe lancs to drop town in one pass and a butt load of goons, can't kill all the troops. Occasionally there would be buff missions at 15k that would take down hangers and town and with fighters following heavy to clean up and goons. Last way was mass osti raid on town a few tanks and m3s, LTAR special.

8. - What is the best way to take a base that can be repeated with a high rate of success?
see 7. jabo's and buffs coming in at altitude is the way I'd go.

10. - Can base capturing be eliminated from the Aces High model and keep the game alive? Explain in real world detail so the HTC accountant will be convinced.
Nope, at that point take out ord, buffs, gv's and strictly make it a dog fighting game. you have no need for strats, cv's and all you need is three bases and a kill counter to win the match.

[bustr]

Our game is very rinse and repeat if you have played long enough. That creates a double edged sword of comfortable expectations and bored familiarity. Unpredictability is then the only wild card depending solely on the player base and their imaginations.

The unpredictability in a micro sense is not knowing exactly who is piloting what you are trying to shoot at or what they want to accomplish. In a macro sense the map tells the story of general intentions once you learn to read it over time from experiencing the results of responding to it as a newbie player. There are a limited number of objects to destroy or objectives to achieve which limits the reasons for dar or base flashing anywhere. This simplicity of repetition makes it reasonable to choose your response by learned experience and not be defeated by frustration directly due to poor choice.

Ok so that gets this simple game out of the way. But, what does a mission have to do with this? Unpredictability for the opening of the mission presenting it's intentions and the expectations from both sides engaged in the conflict. The mission in spirit is supposed to combine all of the individual limited facets of the game into one entity creating a large pool of unpredictability. Greed and self interest then powers the outcome because we are goal driven by nature. Missions in spirit are to feed a spectrum of need unlike simply furballing or strat bombing etc. Foremost is the human need to be part of a group accomplishing a goal.

So most players by nature are happy doing something together be it capturing or defending. This same kind of person though needs a carrot to strive for unlike those who find satisfaction in the rinse and repeat world of furballing. Furballing is the carrot and the stick and the reward by existing. Goal oriented people need more than that. They need a passion play to feel a belonging to. And a ring to reach for in a great epic adventure. Enter the mission.

So we need to discuss the anatomy of a mission because it isn't going away unless we kill this game with our own boredom. We is it, unless Hitech imposes a mission mechanism on us to blindly follow and get rewarded for tagging along. Look how the strats are sort of working out.

Everything in our lives has tipping points that suddenly cascade into rapid evolution. In the larger world we call it fashions or fads or the latest hot thing. Or in business it's the idea no one expected to suddenly turn into a phenomenon over night. In Aces High, missions have constantly evolved with the game from a fun group enterprise to something akin to worshiping the devil today. What really changed? Did our planes suddenly grow horns and evil powers? Did human beings and what motivates them suddenly change and anytime we work as groups we can only perform the basest evil towards others?

Or have we become intolerant of how other players choose to expend their energies as groups. Developed over the years we have come to look at ourselves as fixtures of this game reflected in our personal biases?

It's easy to complain that missions are x, y, and z negative things, while drawing on our vast game experiences to justify sending missions to the gallows for ruining the AH universe. But, we have nothing to offer to the goal oriented groups of paying customers as a viable alternative once we pull the lever and swing Ol Mission to it's reward. Or yes we do but, that's simply our never ending efforts to convince them of how evil missions are. While we share with each other how great they once were in the now past glory days of our game.

Mission = Group of players agreeing to accomplish a goal to make themselves happy.

Todays Mission = Group of old players convincing everyone to abandon missions because somehow they are evil.

Net Result = Boring game even for the old players who now constantly grouse about how boring this game has become.

I hope Hitech doesn't decide this is where he has to impose something on us. Usually it's something we didn't ask for or think we need.
 

[JUGgler]

Simple fix:  (maybe not so simple to code)

The attackers (base takers)

1 - 10 troops in immediately makes the base inert, (unusable to anyone) AA down and radar stays down. A timer is started at 30 minutes. If nothing else happens from this point the base will change over to the new owners at the end of the 30 minutes.

2 - Every 1 troop inserted henceforth reduces the timer by 1 minute.

3 - Entire country is rewarded with perks for a successful capture.

4 - Original mission participants will be rewarded double the perks for a successful base capture.

The defenders (original owners)

1 - Every 1 troop inserted will increase timer by 1 minute, not to exceed 30 minutes.

2 - Getting enough troops in to cancel out the original 10 will automatically switch the timer to the defenders and the base after 30 minutes will revert to their control.

3 - Upon a successful defense and retention of the base, the entire country will earn some modest perks.


I think this idea "although not perfect" would create some intense slugfests. Also as a byproduct I think some squads would begin to specialize in different areas of capture and "counter capture" Some might get good at interdiction/interception, some would specialize in the initial assault and others, the area defense for the 30 minutes, still others would be efficient at troop insertion to speed up the capture.

As for the defenders, they would have some time to organize "defensive missions" with the same type of specialists.

With this idea base captures would require much more planning. The planners will need to take in to account and plan for many more circumstances that "could happen"

With any luck, a fight might just break out!! 

JUGgler

[Black Jack]

I think some of you guys have really good ideas to make this game a little better.  Some ideas would need some modification in coding so couldn't be tested before but for you guys who only have a few mods inside the parameters of the game, why don't you try a special arena..(have no clue what can and cannot be done)  and test some of your ideas. If it's posted in the general forum that such night there will be a special type of arena and you explain what has to be done to play it your way. Be it to capture or save or what ever you modify. This way, we could know if certain aspects or ideas have some value and some others don't or are not viable. If 100 guys would try it out and give feedback, I think even Hitech could see how it could help out. Just my .02 cents

Black70

[bustr]

Jug,

Please O pleas O then teach me how to herd my 5 cats............

Complexity in this game breaks down under the demands of attention spans and a short effort for gratification curve.

The MA is designed around doing now whatever you want to. Within reason NOW is the controlling factor and has always been. Who pays to sit around waiting or being bored listening to someone tell them in gory detail how they will approach a problem. After 2 weeks everyone feels they are qualified to spawn and go blow something up without needing to be told how. Doing it in the company of others increases the fun for many. How each member of that group chooses to accomplish the mission to blow things up goal is on each member. No rules, no nannies just go for it with mainly no recriminations. We keep wanting to turn MA group activities into regimented FSO like activities. That is not the attraction to this unlimited environment.

Missions in this unlimited no rules environment, reached the current point due to the go and do NOW what you please factor. In an unrestricted environment, a group multiplier force factor will have more impact than an individual sans a nuclear force multiplier perk mod. So the only community solution has been peer social stigmatization of missions and stagnate game play. Once you change habits in a group body about it's identity. It takes just as much energy to change them back. Today, Missions = Bad Game Citizens. Why, over kill of the message visa targeting a poster child squad of perceived abuse of a no rules system. And unintended consequences from the outcome. All the while groups still avoid each other looking for the easy path to victory but, now stagnated and boring.

We need to visit the anatomy of what a mission is and elevate it back to an acceptable community activity. Even with missions demonized. Everywhere else in the game we continue to act out our bad conduct as we always have because there are no rules. This then makes bad conduct an "oxymoron". Missions simply condense the obvious into a group enjoying themselves together in a no rules environment. We do as we please when we please because that's what we pay for.

[JUGgler]

Bustr!

I have absolutely no issue with how captures are performed, in fact I believe more freedom is better! freedom to try captures with minimal assistance, freedom to join massed hordes, freedom to exclude ones self from any aspect of the game wished and freedom to include oneself in any aspect of the game one desires!

My idea is not to control anyone or limit freedoms in the game! As I see it the current capture mechanics limit the freedom of defenders to get involved with defending against captures in a reasonably effective way. These mechanics also limit the freedom of attackers, forcing them to gather together in mass to accomplish it.

As far as mission planners giving direction, well they do that now. "hey bombers take out the hangars and town (leave the BH up for vulching", "heavy fighters take down the guns and finish off the town if needed" light fighters cap the base!! etc etc. You see there is plenty of directions given on any mission, even in "squad only missions" So a few more things to take in to account for mission planners is no big deal.

As I see it there really is only one problem with the current capture mechanics and that is, most often it is over to quick and the defenders have little opportunity to put up some form of fight. Like the tornado, it blows in fast and furious only to blow out or pass by in a minute or 2 then all is quiet. Those who try and arrive from a nearby base find nothing and are often too late having waisted their time on the journey many times over.

My idea is only to encourage the attackers to stick around and fight for what they desire and in turn earn themselves some sweet perky pie!

When I was playing, asside from me and a couple other nutjobs who would launch in the face of the vulch and horde to try and defend the base, there was little time or incentive to defend for most folks. I see no problem with folks defending their keep and/or potential keep  

BTW, it is not herding cats, it is thru effort and incentive that folks start to alter their behavior, altering the negative stigmatization of "base attackers" in the process!!


JUGgler

[Midway]

JUGgler

 

[JUGgler]

I PWN JOO!

 



JUGgler

[matt]

Bustr!

I have absolutely no issue with how captures are performed, in fact I believe more freedom is better! freedom to try captures with minimal assistance, freedom to join massed hordes, freedom to exclude ones self from any aspect of the game wished and freedom to include oneself in any aspect of the game one desires!

My idea is not to control anyone or limit freedoms in the game! As I see it the current capture mechanics limit the freedom of defenders to get involved with defending against captures in a reasonably effective way. These mechanics also limit the freedom of attackers, forcing them to gather together in mass to accomplish it.

As far as mission planners giving direction, well they do that now. "hey bombers take out the hangars and town (leave the BH up for vulching", "heavy fighters take down the guns and finish off the town if needed" light fighters cap the base!! etc etc. You see there is plenty of directions given on any mission, even in "squad only missions" So a few more things to take in to account for mission planners is no big deal.

As I see it there really is only one problem with the current capture mechanics and that is, most often it is over to quick and the defenders have little opportunity to put up some form of fight. Like the tornado, it blows in fast and furious only to blow out or pass by in a minute or 2 then all is quiet. Those who try and arrive from a nearby base find nothing and are often too late having waisted their time on the journey many times over.

My idea is only to encourage the attackers to stick around and fight for what they desire and in turn earn themselves some sweet perky pie!

When I was playing, asside from me and a couple other nutjobs who would launch in the face of the vulch and horde to try and defend the base, there was little time or incentive to defend for most folks. I see no problem with folks defending their keep and/or potential keep  

BTW, it is not herding cats, it is thru effort and incentive that folks start to alter their behavior, altering the negative stigmatization of "base attackers" in the process!!


JUGgler

[earl1937]

Jug,

Please O pleas O then teach me how to herd my 5 cats............

Complexity in this game breaks down under the demands of attention spans and a short effort for gratification curve.

The MA is designed around doing now whatever you want to. Within reason NOW is the controlling factor and has always been. Who pays to sit around waiting or being bored listening to someone tell them in gory detail how they will approach a problem. After 2 weeks everyone feels they are qualified to spawn and go blow something up without needing to be told how. Doing it in the company of others increases the fun for many. How each member of that group chooses to accomplish the mission to blow things up goal is on each member. No rules, no nannies just go for it with mainly no recriminations. We keep wanting to turn MA group activities into regimented FSO like activities. That is not the attraction to this unlimited environment.

Missions in this unlimited no rules environment, reached the current point due to the go and do NOW what you please factor. In an unrestricted environment, a group multiplier force factor will have more impact than an individual sans a nuclear force multiplier perk mod. So the only community solution has been peer social stigmatization of missions and stagnate game play. Once you change habits in a group body about it's identity. It takes just as much energy to change them back. Today, Missions = Bad Game Citizens. Why, over kill of the message visa targeting a poster child squad of perceived abuse of a no rules system. And unintended consequences from the outcome. All the while groups still avoid each other looking for the easy path to victory but, now stagnated and boring.

We need to visit the anatomy of what a mission is and elevate it back to an acceptable community activity. Even with missions demonized. Everywhere else in the game we continue to act out our bad conduct as we always have because there are no rules. This then makes bad conduct an "oxymoron". Missions simply condense the obvious into a group enjoying themselves together in a no rules environment. We do as we please when we please because that's what we pay for.

What a "crock" of BS! People join missions to belong to a group which has a "goal" in mind and they want to contribute to the success of that "Goal, in this case, base captures!! As someone who, 95% of the time I am in the game, I am posting and running mission under the banner of the Devil Dogs squadron. People, by and large, in a game like this, enjoys being part of a "para-military" organization, a posted mission! There are some things which could be changed to make the game more enjoyable, but as is now, its the best we have to work with. Some of us guys with bas eyes, 10% in one and 90% in the other,  bombers is about the only way we can enjoy the game, bombing something or someone!

[bustr]

And the other problem with analyzing the anatomy of anything in this game. Personal short term game perspective and motivations running into what you don't want to hear. With an aside of already wanting to combat the current premise over anything including the following irrationality as an example.

Today is Friday.

No it's not, TO DAY is "fRIDAY"!!

Missions have been stigmatized visa community peer pressure for at least the last 6 years over Hoarding, NOE hoarding, and hoarding to avoid combat while stealing easy bases. The justification for the community Nanny effort to stigmatize missions range from a litany of supposed bad habits being fostered against good game conduct. This is by definition an OXYMORON because this game has no rules of conduct imposed on the subscribers. This is not to say missions have been eliminated or there are no mission leaders who lead their missions differently than what the Nannies have railed against and finally stigmatized after all of these years.

Missions used to be the bread and butter so to say of this game as large scale activity generators. As with all popular activities in our game, the most efficient manner to apply a mission was evolved to capture the most bases as quickly as possible. At one time it was a badge of honor to be known as a base capturing squad or successful leader of capture missions. With time, missions evolved into group institutions within the game that concentrated huge numbers of players away from each other while reducing actual combat across the arena as a consequence. Enter Hitech because it was that obvious the game was stagnating itself by combat avoidance. Too much of a good thing with very little effort is addictive to the point it takes an external abrupt force to force people to change.

Because nothing dies quickly where human habits are concerned and unintended consequences are the midwife to Murphy's Law. Missions didn't change, nor did the players love of being a member of a hoard. Almost as a quid pro quo fist raised in defiance to Hitech stepping in and interfering with their fun. The icing on this cake, enter the original "Devil's Rejects" started by Dogfite or as we have forever made them a name to cover a litany of bad conduct in the game, the "vTards".

Everything the Nannies expended the previous years of shirt rending, wearing of sack cloths and doom wailing came true in spades. Dogfite listened to them and used the road map to successful base capturing they wailed about every day to capture undefended bases with a hoard of newbies NOE. Even after he had to quit the game, they carried on because groups and NOE work. For two years it worked along with the Nannies and finally the community, who couldn't be every where at the same time to outguess the vTards. Instead, oxymoronically in a game with no rules, killed off missions other than by a very narrow set of criterion visa community stigmatization of targeted conduct in a no rules game.

The message was supposed to be NOE and Missions = Bad Game Citizen. The unintended consequence resulted in Missions = Bad Game Citizen.

So here we are. Living an oxymoron in a game with no rules because we don't want to be called bad names.

And it was helped by Hitech adjusting some of the capture objects and parameters to make base capturing just hard enough many don't feel like bothering. Unless someone has the stones to organize a hoard or an NOE with a group of friends where everyone is invited by word of mouth quietly.

It's a sad day in this game when someone emphatically says they don't want to be part of a mission because they don't want their squad accused of becoming vTards by the community. Unintended consequences will kill the greatest human endeavors while their happy masters play their harps and watch everything burn around them. At least they got what they wanted in the end.

Today is Friday.

No it's not, TO DAY is "fRIDAY"!!