P-63 KingCobra......again

[Saxman]

For scenarios I would simply expect the P-63 to get no use at all.

At least when I was participating in FSO, the one time the P-63 would have likely been used was the August Storm setup, which was a deliberately HYPOTHETICAL large-scale Soviet assault against the Japanese, far in excess of what the ACTUAL Soviet offensive was.

That's ONE event in about three years of participation in FSO.

[Tank-Ace]

Lol, love the "but I want it!!!  "  mentality.

The fact is that even the Jagdtiger was more historically significant. Hell, most of the axis stuff we have that saw relatively little use numbers wise were still heavily used for their numbers.


Now you want to do the opposite, larger numbers built, possibly didn't even fire its guns in anger.

[Guppy35]

At least when I was participating in FSO, the one time the P-63 would have likely been used was the August Storm setup, which was a deliberately HYPOTHETICAL large-scale Soviet assault against the Japanese, far in excess of what the ACTUAL Soviet offensive was.

That's ONE event in about three years of participation in FSO.

Have you read the book done by the US Army Officer on August Storm Saxman?  Incredibly detailed.  Didn't seem hypothetical To me

Ace are you suggesting the 152 saw a lot of combat?

[Saxman]

Have you read the book done by the US Army Officer on August Storm Saxman?  Incredibly detailed.  Didn't seem hypothetical To me

Ace are you suggesting the 152 saw a lot of combat?

Yes, I know August Storm actually happened. But the FSO event took quite a few liberties with its scale over real history.

[Arlo]

I'd almost rather see a 1946 arena with all the post war aircraft in this sub-forum wished for
than see the rationalization behind each of these individual wishes. I'm serious.

That way you have the MAs and event arenas left alone in this desire to fly the planes that
never saw combat wish.

Maybe it would draw more new customers than WWI did.

(Even realizing that Luftwaffe 1946 fans would go crazy - but then maybe that's the balance
against U.S. 1946.)

THE bad side to this would be saying goodbye to all other additions until there's at least a
dozen 1946 fantasy planes modeled.

 

[Tank-Ace]

Notice I said most of. But even so, the Ta-152 meets de facto requirements, and is confirmed to have shot stuff down. The P-63 may not even have shot AT stuff.

[Megalodon]

All of those saw MONTHS of combat. The P-63 MAYBE saw combat in the very last week of the war (rumored use of P-63s "disguised" as P-39s shouldn't even enter into consideration at all).

That's a HUGE difference.

 If you would like to go over the amount of combat the 152 saw I would be happy to oblige... http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,351620.0.html
 

On 1 Day Aug 11<the second day of august storm> the soviets put up more sorties <50> of P-63 than all the combined sorties of the 152H-1. The model of 152H we have in the game possible had 5-8 planes that made it in to combat.


Also I think you should dig into this guy and find out what and where he was flying when shot down. Mikhail Devyatayev. It is well documented how he escaped. What he was flying was kept secret and got him the gulag when he returned home.

 

[Arlo]

If you would like to go over the amount of combat the 152 saw I would be happy to oblige... http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,351620.0.html
 

On 1 Day Aug 11<the second day of august storm> the soviets put up more sorties <50> of P-63 than all the combined sorties of the 152H-1. The model of 152H we have in the game possible had 5-8 planes that made it in to combat.


Also I think you should dig into this guy and find out what and where he was flying when shot down. Mikhail Devyatayev. It is well documented how he escaped. What he was flying was kept secret and got him the gulag when he returned home.

 

By sortie you mean encountering enemy aircraft and at least shooting at them? The 152 has instances of that, specifically, documented.

[Megalodon]

I'm going to put these here as they get lost in the other thread:

It saw action against the Japanese 

Simpler,

"The initial Kingcobras went to units that had been armed with Aircobras. The first to receive P-63s was the 28th IAP of PVO, based near Moscow.  P-63s arrived at the 17th and the 821st IAPs, ten planes in each. In autumn several Kingcobras came to the 39th IAP. All these regiments entered PVO of the Moscow region. By May 1, 1945 51 PVO regiments were equipped with P-63s.

The P-63 began to be delivered in to Soviet Air Forces in the summer of 1945. As preparations were made for the war with Japan, the new fighters were sent to aviation units of the 12th Air Army in the Far East. The 190th aviation division under the command of Major General Fokin was the first to receive P-63A. The division was transfered to Trans-Baikal in June 1945 and by August 2 finished retraining on the new American fighter. During air operations in Manchuria it flew from two airfields–”Ural” and “Leningrad”–located not far from Choibolsan in Mongolia.

The 245th IAD, which included the 940th and the 781st IAP regiments also flew P-63s. In July and August Kingcobras arrived at the 128th SAD (mixed aviation division), based on Kamchatka peninsula. At the beginning of air operations 97 P-63s arrived at the 9th and the 10th Air Armies.

During the brief military campaign against Japan, Kingcobras were used to provide air cover from air ground troops and ships, to attack and bomb, provide escort, and conduct reconnaissance. For example, on the second day of the offensive, Aug 11, 40 II-4 bombers, escorted by 50 P-63s bombed the fortifications at Suchzhou. Pilots of the 190th and the 245th IADs working as attack planes and light bombers supported the advancing Soviet and Mongolian troops. They also covered transport planes, delivering fuel to the advanced tank and mechanized units. The P-63s carried two Soviet FAB-100 bombs externally. Underwing large-caliber machine guns were not usually mounted when bombs were carried. The 888th and the 410th IAPs from the Kamchatka peninsula inflicted considerable damage to Japanese bases on the Kuril Islands, and then covered the landing of Soviet troops on them.

The Japanese aircraft did not offer serious resistance to the advancing Soviet armies, therefore it was impossible to assess the Kingcobra’s performance in air fights. One unique air combat in a P-63 was flown by Junior Lieutenant I. F. Mirishnichenko of the 17th IAP. On August 17 he and V. F. Sirotin (a Hero of the Soviet Union) attacked two Japanese fighters, who were attacking transport planes coming in for a landing not far from the ship Vanemyao. One Japanese pilot was shot down, another managed to disappear on low-level flight among nearby hills. Miroshnichenko probably shot down the Japanese Ki-43 Hayabusa fighters."




As of August 1, 1945... the last month of the Pacific war....the soviets had these P-63's units in action in squadron form Aug 9th fighting and bombing and scoring at least 2 kills .....the war is not over till September 2nd. http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=167
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/joe_brennan/order_of_battle.htm

Transbaikal Front
12 Air Army Marshal S. A. Khudyakov
190 IAD Col. V.V. Fokin
17 IAP P-63A
821 IAP P-63A (only 2 regiments)

245 IAD Col. G. P. Pleshchenko
781 IAP P-63A
940 IAP P-63A


Far Eastern Front
128 SAD Lt. Col. M. A. Eryomin
888 IAP P-63A
410 ShAP P-63A
903 BAP SB-2, PV-1, A-20G-1



The P-63 was based off of the P-39Q which we have in the game and would be an "easy addition" to the game. Such as the Ta-152 and P-47M. Produced in far more numbers, some 2000 delivered before the end of the war, the P-63A well deserves a spot in AH.

When we get the P-63...the P-63A-10 would be the choice as it was the most produced of the A varient.
M-10 Cannon <a bit faster and 58 rounds>
4 x 50cal+
2 X 500lbs
6 x Rocketrail

P-63A (Bell Model 33): First production model (1,825 built), deliveries from October 1943.
Sub-variants were:
   P-63A-1-BE: 50 built (s/ns 42-68861 - 42-68910). Virtually identical with XP-63A. Had 37mm M-4 cannon with 30 rounds, four 12.7mm guns and provision for a drop tank or a 227kg bomb under the fuselage.
   P-63A-5-BE: 20 built (s/ns 42-68911 - 42-68930). Introduced dorsal radio mast. Increased armor.
   P-63A-6-BE: 130 built (s/ns 42-68931 - 42-69060). Fitted with additional underwing racks for drop tanks or bombs. One experimentally fitted with ski undercarriage.
   P-63A-7-BE: 150 built (s/ns 42-69061 - 42-69210). Different propeller, increase in wing loading, modified nose gun mounts and horizontal tail surfaces.
   P-63A-8-BE: 200 built (s/ns 42-69211 - 42-69410). Increased armor, improved propeller, water injection added for engine, ammunition for wing guns reduced from 250 to 200rpg.
   P-63A-9-BE: 450 built (s/ns 42-69411 - 42-69860). Increased armor, 37mm M-10 cannon (with 58 rounds) instead of earlier M-4.
   P-63A-10-BE: 730 built (s/ns 42-69861 - 42-69879; 42-69975 - 42-70685). Armor further increased, underwing rocket rails added.

 cheers

[Ack-Ack]

As has been pointed out, that is just one of the few stories that are floating around and without any definitive proof, it will always be open for debate.

For example, some accounts have the kill being awarded to Mirishnichenko, other accounts give the kill to Sirotin, some credit both.  Some accounts state the plane was either a IJAAF/ MIAF, or RGCAF Ki-43 or Ki-27.  Some account say it was a lone Japanese fighter, some account say two.  Some accounts have the action taking place in Manchuria on the Trans-Baikal Front, other account say it was in Mongolia and another account says it happened over what is now North Korea.  Some accounts have the shoot down taking place near a ship named Vanemyao, though there are no records of this ship and it appears it maybe a misspelling of the Mongolian city that was being attacked by the Soviets at the time.

There are just too many 'accounts' of the story, all with differing aspects that you can't single one out and say, "this is exactly what happened."

Did the P-63 see combat operations during Operation August Storm?  Most certainly.  Did the P-63 engage in combat?  It certainly did, it engaged in close ground support missions.  Did the P-63 see any air to air combat?  It's widely open for debate.  Should the P-63 be added to the game?  Most certainly, however, it really doesn't plug any missing gaps in the plane set so I wouldn't consider it to be a 'must need' addition but something to be added further down the line when the glaring gaps in the plane set filled.

ack-ack

[Megalodon]

As has been pointed out, that is just one of the few stories that are floating around and without any definitive proof, it will always be open for debate.

For example, some accounts have the kill being awarded to Mirishnichenko, other accounts give the kill to Sirotin, some credit both.  Some accounts state the plane was either a IJAAF/ MIAF, or RGCAF Ki-43 or Ki-27.  Some account say it was a lone Japanese fighter, some account say two.  Some accounts have the action taking place in Manchuria on the Trans-Baikal Front, other account say it was in Mongolia and another account says it happened over what is now North Korea.  Some accounts have the shoot down taking place near a ship named Vanemyao, though there are no records of this ship and it appears it maybe a misspelling of the Mongolian city that was being attacked by the Soviets at the time.

There are just too many 'accounts' of the story, all with differing aspects that you can't single one out and say, "this is exactly what happened."

Did the P-63 see combat operations during Operation August Storm?  Most certainly.  Did the P-63 engage in combat?  It certainly did, it engaged in close ground support missions.  Did the P-63 see any air to air combat?  It's widely open for debate.  Should the P-63 be added to the game?  Most certainly, however, it really doesn't plug any missing gaps in the plane set so I wouldn't consider it to be a 'must need' addition but something to be added further down the line when the glaring gaps in the plane set filled.

ack-ack

I think I'll stick with what an expert on the subject says    Carl Fredric Geust

You know I would like to justify all the B-239 claims with Soviet loss totals... can you find that info for me just to make sure it is 100% right?

 

Edit: Also can you find the agreement the Soviets had with the U.S. 1943 that said they would not use the P-63 against Germany?

Because untill I see that agreement ...I will just assume the Soviets did what they wanted with the P-63 

[Ack-Ack]

I think I'll stick with what an expert on the subject says    Carl Fredric Geust

Problem is that many experts on the subject can't agree on the encounter or whether or not it occured.  Using an unverified account of a single instance of combat as an argument to get the P-63 added to the game is rather silly.  You're better off using verifiable combat missions such as the close air support the P-63 provided during Operation August Storm to support your argument.

You know I would like to justify all the B-239 claims with Soviet loss totals... can you find that info for me just to make sure it is 100% right?

There is a group that is currently trying verify the claims by searching through old Luftwaffe and Soviet air force records but it's not complete yet.  One thing to note about the 477 claimed kills for a 26:1 kill ratio is that over all number isn't broken down by fighters, bombers or support aircraft and most people think the Finns kill tally and ratio was solely against Soviet fighters.  

Also can you find the Agreement the Soviets had with the U.S. 1943 that said they would not use the p-63 against Germany.

According to the reference book, "Aviation Lend-lease to Russia: Historical Observations" by Igor Lebedev, the agreement stemmed from a real fear at the time (1942) that Japan would still attack the Soviet Union and that the Soviets lacked the airfields between the ETO and PTO to rapidly move short range fighters to that theater.  The US then proposed shuttling fighters to Siberia via Alaska on the assumption that they would be used to reinforce the Soviet air force in the east.  Just as the US and Canada built a chain of airfields through Alberta and the Yukon to ferry aircraft to Alaska, the Soviets built a series of airfields from the Urals to Siberia (Called Northern Trace by the Soviet) without informing the US that these airfields were built.  The US believed that the P-63s delivered through the Alaska-Siberia route would be reserved for use in the Far East by the Soviets.

As for the use of the P-63 over Germany during the Soviet drive to Berlin, there is no evidence of it.  There are no official Soviet records of any Soviet air unit in Europe that operated the P-63.  I know there are some that claim the 4 GIAP had secretly converted from the P-39 to the P-63 and that Germans on the ground confirmed P-63 wrecks after being shot down by AAA but again, nothing to support these claims.  In fact, the 4 GIAP didn't fly P-39s and were part of VVS KBF and flew La-5s and later La-7s.  As for the German claims of seeing wrecks of shot down P-63s, these can be dismissed as simple misidentification, what the Germans probably actually saw were the wrecks of shot down P-39s.

If you were a German soldier, could you tell these two planes apart?




ack-ack

[Arlo]

I think I'll stick with what an expert on the subject says    Carl Fredric Geust

I'm pretty sure you think him the absolute authority because you prefer his second-hand accounting.

Never-the-less, as Ack-Ack posted, it's just not that important nor should it be considered such.

It should probably be modeled somewhere after every aircraft in the entire Swiss Air Force.  

[Megalodon]

Problem is that many experts on the subject can't agree on the encounter or whether or not it occured.  Using an unverified account of a single instance of combat as an argument to get the P-63 added to the game is rather silly.  You're better off using verifiable combat missions such as the close air support the P-63 provided during Operation August Storm to support your argument.

There is a group that is currently trying verify the claims by searching through old Luftwaffe and Soviet air force records but it's not complete yet.  One thing to note about the 477 claimed kills for a 26:1 kill ratio is that over all number isn't broken down by fighters, bombers or support aircraft and most people think the Finns kill tally and ratio was solely against Soviet fighters.  

According to the reference book, "Aviation Lend-lease to Russia: Historical Observations" by Igor Lebedev, the agreement stemmed from a real fear at the time (1942) that Japan would still attack the Soviet Union and that the Soviets lacked the airfields between the ETO and PTO to rapidly move short range fighters to that theater.  The US then proposed shuttling fighters to Siberia via Alaska on the assumption that they would be used to reinforce the Soviet air force in the east.  Just as the US and Canada built a chain of airfields through Alberta and the Yukon to ferry aircraft to Alaska, the Soviets built a series of airfields from the Urals to Siberia (Called Northern Trace by the Soviet) without informing the US that these airfields were built.  The US believed that the P-63s delivered through the Alaska-Siberia route would be reserved for use in the Far East by the Soviets.

As for the use of the P-63 over Germany during the Soviet drive to Berlin, there is no evidence of it.  There are no official Soviet records of any Soviet air unit in Europe that operated the P-63.  I know there are some that claim the 4 GIAP had secretly converted from the P-39 to the P-63 and that Germans on the ground confirmed P-63 wrecks after being shot down by AAA but again, nothing to support these claims.  In fact, the 4 GIAP didn't fly P-39s and were part of VVS KBF and flew La-5s and later La-7s.  As for the German claims of seeing wrecks of shot down P-63s, these can be dismissed as simple misidentification, what the Germans probably actually saw were the wrecks of shot down P-39s.

If you were a German soldier, could you tell these two planes apart?
(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

ack-ack

Igor is not the Agreement ....
I would like to see proof just as you ask for "something concrete" that says "USSR don't use the P-63 against Germany".

Ussr and US talked about the Soviet advance on the Japanese in April 45.
As far as the Pacific or Manchuria I don't need to look at that any more. I think just about every one can see that happened. The time frame to the end of the war <Pacific> is equilivent to the Ta-152. The Germans just kept better records and the Soviets have just kept there's locked up.


 Nice but disingenuous.... you need the rear looking radar that made it easy to identify by the germans.



Edit Btw Ack let me point you to where your quote came from..... Please take note of the gentlemans name  

"BTW "4 GIAP" did NEVER use Airacobras nor Kingcobras; 4 GIAP belonged to VVS KBF (Baltic Fleet Air Force, ex-13 IAP, which used La-5s from 1943 and converted to La-7s in autumn 1944 Furthermore Pokryhskin had NOTHING to do with the Soviet Naval AF."

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=26218

"Only a handful Kingcobras joined VVS regiments in the European theatre during WW II (e.g. 6 GIAK got six Kingcobras in March 1945, used by 67 GIAP in the Berlin operation). In the short Manchurian campaign against Japan in August 1945 several of the fighter regiments of the Pacific Fleet were equipped with Kingcobras, which remained in service until the early 1950s."

"Identified Kingcobra operators:
6 GIAK:
- 273 IAD: 67 GIAP (ex 436 IAP, Berlin 1945)
PVO: 17 IAP (Aug 1945-), 28 IAP (Moscow, spring 1945-), 39 IAP (Moscow, 1945-), 821 IAP (Aug 1945-)
12 VA:
- 190 IAD (June 1945-): 17 and 21 IAP;
- 128 SAD (July 1945-): 410 and 888 IAP
- 245 IAD (1945-): 781 and 940 IAP;


VVS TOF: 7 IAP (Aug 1945-), 37 OAE, 43 AP, 19 ABr, 50 AP, 27 AP, 888 IAP"


 

[Megalodon]

I'm pretty sure you think him the absolute authority because you prefer his second-hand accounting.

LOL point me to all the research and books you have written on the subject

 You almost sound like Krusty