Author Topic: Lame or Not Lame...you decide  (Read 5536 times)

Offline bozon

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Re: Lame or Not Lame...you decide
« Reply #75 on: September 01, 2013, 05:54:44 AM »
I did not see the film. Can't be bothered.

However, I can comment this: when two very different planes meet, like a spit I and a P47, if there is no fight it is just as often the fault of the slow turny plane. Yes, the slow plane and not the fast one. If you want the P47 to fight you, give him room to turn back. I know that if a zeke, brew, KI43 etc. are following me (let say in P47 or mossie) 800 yards out, all they will get to see is me mooning them out of the rear window and I wouldn't mind dragging them across the entire map just to spite. Boring to you? good! break away, give me 2.0k separation and I will turn back to fight you even from a moderate disadvantage. Then again, be sure that all you will get is about two moves in which either I kill the slow plan, die, or try to dive and pull away again.

The turny plane has no right to complain unless he accepts fighting from a disadvantage. That is written in the small captions when you sign on the plane in the hangar. Why does he expect the P47 to fight from an absolute disadvantage? If the P47 is flying 3k above you and refuses to engage - then complain.

disclaimer:
I may choose not to engage even with separation and/or advantage under the following circumstances: low on fuel, out of ammo/only 303 guns, squadmate needs help, I must go AFK, or I can't be bothered.

Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

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Offline dedalos

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Re: Lame or Not Lame...you decide
« Reply #76 on: September 01, 2013, 10:54:36 AM »
I did not see the film. Can't be bothered.

However, I can comment this: when two very different planes meet, like a spit I and a P47, if there is no fight it is just as often the fault of the slow turny plane. Yes, the slow plane and not the fast one. If you want the P47 to fight you, give him room to turn back. I know that if a zeke, brew, KI43 etc. are following me (let say in P47 or mossie) 800 yards out, all they will get to see is me mooning them out of the rear window and I wouldn't mind dragging them across the entire map just to spite. Boring to you? good! break away, give me 2.0k separation and I will turn back to fight you even from a moderate disadvantage. Then again, be sure that all you will get is about two moves in which either I kill the slow plan, die, or try to dive and pull away again.

The turny plane has no right to complain unless he accepts fighting from a disadvantage. That is written in the small captions when you sign on the plane in the hangar. Why does he expect the P47 to fight from an absolute disadvantage? If the P47 is flying 3k above you and refuses to engage - then complain.

disclaimer:
I may choose not to engage even with separation and/or advantage under the following circumstances: low on fuel, out of ammo/only 303 guns, squadmate needs help, I must go AFK, or I can't be bothered.




you are correct. You did not watch the film  :old:
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Lame or Not Lame...you decide
« Reply #77 on: September 01, 2013, 11:12:55 AM »
If the P47 is flying 3k above you and refuses to engage - then complain.


This characterizes my most recent encounter with Uptown. He had an alt advantage but refused to come down so that he may fly to the Jug's strengths up higher, so as he said "Why don't you come on up?" I extended out, climbed, and shot him up pretty good. I haven't watched the OP film, but my impression is that it seems that you are a little too wary to engage in a fight not perfectly suited for the Jug. If you have an alt advantage in a 1v1, you should press that advantage and be aggressive. Being timid and refusing to press the advantage when you have it can definitely be detrimental to your survival, if that is what you seek to do. However, on the other hand, I totally understand extending and not turning into a better turning plane's gunsight if he is locked onto you at 800-1.5k.

Offline Zacherof

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Re: Lame or Not Lame...you decide
« Reply #78 on: September 01, 2013, 11:34:41 AM »
You are only two tours late.

You are my minion.
I took looking at your avatar and a bit of beer to make the connection :rofl :rofl
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Offline Debrody

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Re: Lame or Not Lame...you decide
« Reply #79 on: September 01, 2013, 11:36:28 AM »
Uptown is not the bestest pilot out there, but he gave me a decent fight almost every time, let it be 109vs38 or 190vs38/51, as far as my senile mind can remember.
AoM
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Offline uptown

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Re: Lame or Not Lame...you decide
« Reply #80 on: September 01, 2013, 12:02:47 PM »
This characterizes my most recent encounter with Uptown. He had an alt advantage but refused to come down so that he may fly to the Jug's strengths up higher, so as he said "Why don't you come on up?" I extended out, climbed, and shot him up pretty good. I haven't watched the OP film, but my impression is that it seems that you are a little too wary to engage in a fight not perfectly suited for the Jug. If you have an alt advantage in a 1v1, you should press that advantage and be aggressive. Being timid and refusing to press the advantage when you have it can definitely be detrimental to your survival, if that is what you seek to do. However, on the other hand, I totally understand extending and not turning into a better turning plane's gunsight if he is locked onto you at 800-1.5k.
I remember that day. I knew it was you down there low and if I know anything I know you don't do anything unless you have an ace up your sleeve TJ. The first thing I thought when I seen you down low heading the direction to your field is you were trying to drag me down low so that the higher cons lifting from your base could bounce me. My idea was to stay high and get a few rather than blow all my alt to maybe get one. And sure enough I was right... 2 or 3 co alt cons kept me defensive until you extended and got co alt with me to take one of my flaps. ;) I wouldn't consider myself a timid flyer by any means, cautious or wary...yes. But one thing I am not is noob stupid.  :)

Two bulls sitting on top of a hill looking down at a herd of cows. The young excited bull says, I'm going to charge down there and screw the hell out of that cow. The old bull says, "be patience and just watch for a while and you can have your way with all of them in due time."
Lighten up Francis

Offline uptown

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Re: Lame or Not Lame...you decide
« Reply #81 on: September 01, 2013, 12:07:07 PM »
Uptown is not the bestest pilot out there, but he gave me a decent fight almost every time, let it be 109vs38 or 190vs38/51, as far as my senile mind can remember.
Thank you DeBrody.  :salute
Lighten up Francis

Offline Bear76

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Re: Lame or Not Lame...you decide
« Reply #82 on: September 01, 2013, 12:35:50 PM »
Myself I personally think I did the right thing by making my opponent fight my fight and not his. If that's lame then I'm guilty.

Film of the engagement ------>http://www.mediafire.com/?949z0jd83dm57gq

I feel asleep at 3:00 in. I'll wait until it comes out on DVD. :)

Offline Kingpin

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Re: Lame or Not Lame...you decide
« Reply #83 on: September 02, 2013, 02:53:04 AM »
Trying to provide a different perspective, here's my take on this film: (OH NO, BUSTER-ESQUE WALL OF TEXT!)

This is NOT a lame fight.  For those of you with ADD, you can stop reading here.  For those who are learning, or like to analyse fights or are interested in plane performance, the rest might be interesting.  

This is a climbing, high altitude fight.  To many, it may be a protracted, boring fight, but it is a very good example of how differing aircraft performance plays a role in fights, especially at alt.  If you actually watch the film (and it's laughable how many comments came from those who DIDN'T watch the full film), if you watch it from the perspective of looking for the gaps in speed and climb, it is actually kind of interesting.  In fact, if you were told in advance that the fight would be a climbing fight ranging from 19K up to 26K (and took WEP out of the equation), you could actually look at the plane performance charts and see where the turning point of the energy fight will likely come.

First off, for those that say Uptown didn't try to engage the Spit -- you should try watching the film again.   The Spit starts 960 yards on Uptown's six o'clock WITH a 400 foot altitude advantage.  Uptown doesn't clearly start with the upper hand here.  He has no angle, and a minor speed advantage of 135 MPH, which he (wisely) uses to extend and climb.  The Spit is actually out-climbing him when he goes straight vertical and drops flaps to TURN INTO THE SPIT.  Oh, look, he actually DID TURN INTO THE SPIT.  TWICE, in fact, both times from less than 1.5K away.

However, after both merges the Spit is actually winning position AND narrowing the energy gap.  After the SECOND merge the Spit is 500 feet ABOVE his P-47 and Uptown's speed difference has dropped to +33mph.  (In other words, the Spit is winning angles while narrowing the energy gap each turn).  When Uptown begins his long climbing extension, the Spit is 760 yards away ON HIS SIX and Uptown only has a measly 10mph speed advantage (at about 1:15 into the fight).  A plane with 50cals, may have pinged him here and maybe have gotten a lucky damaging shot.  He clearly doesn't have a distinct ADVANTAGE, anywhere at the beginning of this fight.

So, what do you do when you are nearly CO-E with a Spit 760 yards on your six?  Continue turning with them?  Sure you do, because you are all about the fight.
Or maybe you would use your airplane's speed advantage to extend and gain a bit of energy?  Uptown does this, deciding to climb.  At 19K without WEP, he has NO climb rate advantage on the Spit1.  Even with WEP it will take a couple minutes of climbing to gain 1500-2000 feet on the Spit.  This is essentially the BORING part of the fight, but if you STAY TUNED, this is also where it get's INTERESTING.

Let's ignore the Spit16 trying to climb up to the Spit 1, as it never was a factor (just as BE said, so he ignored it too).  If anything, it made the climbing part longer as Uptown is also turning.   So, lets skip the boring and irrelevant part and fast forward to where the Spit1 and P47N reach about 25K - if you're still with me, start the film at 4:15.  Notice at that stage how much more quickly the gap increases, even though Uptown is TURNING back into the Spit (again).  Now go look at the Speed and Climb Rate charts for these two planes -- notice how much the Speed and Climb Rate gaps increase between 20K to 25K.  Once he has lured the Spit1 up to 25K, Uptown is rapidly able to gain that E advantage which he quickly uses to turn into the Spit and kill it.  

Isn't that exactly what you're doing when you bait that "stupid Pony" into trying to turn or zoom climb with you by "giving him your six" when you're in a Ki-84 or 109K-4?  Yeah, it pretty much is.  It just doesn't take 3 minutes to do it.  So, then it would be OK for the Pony pilot to call you lame for "making" him climb with you, because you didn't fight him how he wanted, right?  

In my opinion it is not "lame" to avoid your enemy's strengths and instead get him to play into your strengths.  Everyone tries to do that -- just in different ways.

<S>
Ryno
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 03:12:33 AM by Kingpin »
Quote from: bozon
For those of us playing this game for well over a decade, Aces High is more of a social club. The game just provides the framework. I keep logging in for the people and Pipz was the kind that you keep coming to meet again.

Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Lame or Not Lame...you decide
« Reply #84 on: September 02, 2013, 03:58:39 AM »
if you're still with me, start the film at 4:15.  Notice at that stage how much more quickly the gap increases, even though Uptown is TURNING back into the Spit (again).  Now go look at the Speed and Climb Rate charts for these two planes -- notice how much the Speed and Climb Rate gaps increase between 20K to 25K.  Once he has lured the Spit1 up to 25K, Uptown is rapidly able to gain that E advantage which he quickly uses to turn into the Spit and kill it.

The only part you missed was that I turned away from him before he turned to me and as I pushed the nose down to disengage I killed the engine.  That would definitely make the speed and climb rates change a lot.

It would have been completely different if he had turned into me while I was still trying to follow him.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 04:01:15 AM by BaldEagl »
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline Kingpin

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Re: Lame or Not Lame...you decide
« Reply #85 on: September 02, 2013, 06:04:29 AM »
The only part you missed was that I turned away from him before he turned to me and as I pushed the nose down to disengage I killed the engine.  That would definitely make the speed and climb rates change a lot.

It would have been completely different if he had turned into me while I was still trying to follow him.

Actually, I watched the film pretty closely from all 3 perspectives (yours, his and the Spit16's) and I don't think I missed what you are referring to.  

From 4:15 to about 5:00 you continue to follow him up, and it is here that he builds the greatest separation, which was kind of my point about the pronounced gap in performance at that altitude.  

If you watch from his perspective from 4:50 to 5:00 and pause at the 5:00 mark (when you've nosed down) he already has rolled about 75-80 degrees back into you with his lift vector almost pointed back to you (about 80-degrees of turn back into you).  It appears like he decided he had enough separation to turn at around 4:50, and has committed to to turning back in well BEFORE your engine conks out.

I think you recognized about then that the position was getting bad and you started to get out.  It was fortuitous timing for him that your engine conked then, because he had set up the attack already.  I could also see where from your perspective it did seem like he attacked after you turned, since the kill shot was about 15 seconds later.  But in watching the film it looks to me like he started the turn and committed to the attack well before you nosed down and rolled right.

My view on it, anyway.

<S>
Ryno
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 06:26:10 AM by Kingpin »
Quote from: bozon
For those of us playing this game for well over a decade, Aces High is more of a social club. The game just provides the framework. I keep logging in for the people and Pipz was the kind that you keep coming to meet again.

Offline aztec

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Re: Lame or Not Lame...you decide
« Reply #86 on: September 02, 2013, 07:41:16 AM »
The only part you missed was that I turned away from him before he turned to me and as I pushed the nose down to disengage I killed the engine.  That would definitely make the speed and climb rates change a lot.

It would have been completely different if he had turned into me while I was still trying to follow him.
You fought, you lost, you died, you whined now get over it.

Offline -ammo-

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Re: Lame or Not Lame...you decide
« Reply #87 on: September 02, 2013, 08:25:02 AM »
Aztec is the Wolfpack's Public Relations Officer (PAO) :rock
Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline -ammo-

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Re: Lame or Not Lame...you decide
« Reply #88 on: September 02, 2013, 08:27:24 AM »
Kingpen,

Thank you for stating the facts.  It is kind of refreshing! :O

Ammo

« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 08:31:18 AM by -ammo- »
Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011