Author Topic: Air Superiority Fighter of 60th-70th  (Read 6050 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Air Superiority Fighter of 60th-70th
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2013, 04:32:47 PM »
Barrett Tillman was one of my favorite aviation authors growing up, him and Mark Berent.  Tillman I've seen on a few tv programs and also a couple of articles someplace talked about the cannons on the F8 and how unreliable they were, especially if fired under any G load.  Strange that a plane with the nickname "Last Gunfighter" had crappy poorly functioning guns.  I've still seen and read some great stories by Crusader pilots during the Vietnam war and it was a great single engine fighter by all accounts.

The SUU23 pod I've read had a gunsight of some kind that made hitting a target somewhat possible, but everything else I've read about the gun pods wasn't rave reviews for sure.

I've also read a lot about the air to ground IAF tactics during the 67 and 73 wars, and apparently they used the A4 with 30mm mounted guns to great affect against enemy tanks.  I've always wondered about that, a slow firing single barrel x2 gun platform vs the heavy tanks of the era, and wondered how many the A4's actually killed, as some guys had written that a number of times flights of 4 A4's would beat the hell out of a company of tanks, some pilots killing 3, 4, even 5 tanks in a single sortie.  I don't want to doubt them, it just seems like really good shooting, when you think about the A10 and its fire rate in comparison with the same caliber of round, those A4 pilots must have been very good shots and got in very close.

Speaking of Tillman, he wrote a book about the F20 Tigershark, and I always thought it was the perfect fighter for Israel.  It was probably the most efficient fighter of the time when it came to using fuel, it could hang with anything in the sky in visual range fights, and could be equipped with a good radar as well.  It was also very small, and hard to see, and from the pilots I know who fly the CF18, when they used to fight vs the CF5's, they said it was a real PITA due to their size.  They did have very good 20mm guns, mounted in a great position for good accuracy/trajectory as well, and like I said, due to the guns, size, and cheapness for the high performance given, I always figured Israel would be the one country that would have bought the F20.

Wasn't the F-20 an evolution of the F-5?  It's unfortunate it never saw any service with any country, though I do recall Northrop had some success in selling components that came out of the F-20 program before it was cancelled.

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Offline Nefarious

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Re: Air Superiority Fighter of 60th-70th
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2013, 09:17:34 PM »
Air to Air Kills and Claims SEA part 1

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_243.shtml

Air to Air Kills and Claims SEA part 2

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_244.shtml

Another reason The USN didn't use the Gun Pod like the Air Force did was because of fuel constraints. First off, The USN very rarely ever used the out board 370 gallon tanks on the F-4 B/J and later the N/S while at sea. The Navy was forced to use the the 600 gallon centerline because without it the F-4 would barely have enough fuel to reach the tanker after takeoff. It literally would expend all it's internal fuel in 6-7 minutes during take off ops.

The USAF on the other hand could use the outboard 370 gallon tanks because of the ease of use while operating at modern airfields in Thailand and South Vietnam and could find a tanker fast if they had to jettison their tanks.

If you check the links I posted, the F-105 appears to have more gun kills than the F-4C and D (USAF variants with Gun Pod).
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Offline DaveBB

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Re: Air Superiority Fighter of 60th-70th
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2013, 09:26:17 AM »
Wasn't the F-20 an evolution of the F-5?  It's unfortunate it never saw any service with any country, though I do recall Northrop had some success in selling components that came out of the F-20 program before it was cancelled.

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Yeah, the F-20 and F-16 were designed with same criteria in mind.  A fighter that excelled at within-visual-range air to air combat.  The plane had a tremendous instantaneous turn rate.  Unfortunately this caused a fatal g-loc and one of the test pilots was killed after he passed out at the onset of such a high g-load.  One of the criteria of the aircraft was to not have a large amount of room (5 cubic feet iirc) for upgrades.  The pilots involved in the design did not want the aircraft being loaded down with a bunch of extra equipment weight or being used for other purposes.  Perhaps this is what caused the downfall of the F-20.
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Offline bozon

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Re: Air Superiority Fighter of 60th-70th
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2013, 12:25:40 PM »
I've also read a lot about the air to ground IAF tactics during the 67 and 73 wars, and apparently they used the A4 with 30mm mounted guns to great affect against enemy tanks.  I've always wondered about that, a slow firing single barrel x2 gun platform vs the heavy tanks of the era, and wondered how many the A4's actually killed, as some guys had written that a number of times flights of 4 A4's would beat the hell out of a company of tanks, some pilots killing 3, 4, even 5 tanks in a single sortie.  I don't want to doubt them, it just seems like really good shooting, when you think about the A10 and its fire rate in comparison with the same caliber of round, those A4 pilots must have been very good shots and got in very close.
I've never heard of this, but I seriously doubt they destroyed the tanks with their 30 mm guns. Detracked them and caused lots of external damage to the equipment, likely. Often, this is all that you really need, but this is nothing that can't be repaired and not likely to kill the crew inside. Bombs and cluster mines were used against tanks and A-4 dropped lots of these in the Golan Heights in 1973 in an attempt to slow the massive armor charge of the Syrians.

Quote
Speaking of Tillman, he wrote a book about the F20 Tigershark, and I always thought it was the perfect fighter for Israel.  It was probably the most efficient fighter of the time when it came to using fuel, it could hang with anything in the sky in visual range fights, and could be equipped with a good radar as well.  It was also very small, and hard to see, and from the pilots I know who fly the CF18, when they used to fight vs the CF5's, they said it was a real PITA due to their size.  They did have very good 20mm guns, mounted in a great position for good accuracy/trajectory as well, and like I said, due to the guns, size, and cheapness for the high performance given, I always figured Israel would be the one country that would have bought the F20.
The F-20 was overlooked by the IAF for several reasons. First, at the time Israel was developing its own fighter - the Lavi. Initially it was supposed to be a cheap modern fighter, something in the spirit of the F-20, but it ended up as a direct competitor to the F-16 at a higher price than initially intended. The US put a lot of pressure on Israel to cancel that project and eventually it was canceled (there were other reasons as well). Part of the pressure to cancel the project was a "carrot" - a very attractive arms deal that included the latest block of F-16s at an attractive price. These were brand new ,right off of the production line. Many of the fighters that Israel got from the US before that were used ones, handed down from the USAF. The IAF could not pass up such an offer and filled its ranks with shiny new F-16s. At the time, the Kfir filled the all purpose cheap fighter of the IAF and in combination with the A-4s on one side and F-16s, F-15s and Israeli-upgraded F-4 Phantoms on the other side, there was no need or room for the F-20.

Also, there is a lot of politics involved in such deals. I bet that the US administration had an interest in promoting the F-16s deal with the IAF over a hypothetical F-20 deal. Perhaps because the USAF was highly invested in the F-16 and more sales meant lower cost per unit overall.

The F-20 could have been a good IAF plane, but the timing was just wrong and conditions not right for this to happen.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 12:28:05 PM by bozon »
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Offline FLS

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Re: Air Superiority Fighter of 60th-70th
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2013, 01:08:43 PM »
The 30mm gun was mounted angled down and didn't align with the fixed sight in the A-4. It was difficult to use well and saw less use than was anticipated when the 20mm was replaced.

Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Air Superiority Fighter of 60th-70th
« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2013, 03:58:27 PM »
Combat usage can make or break warplane reputations, yet if the operators are poorly matched in
level of competence, or asymmetric combat situations - then outcomes can be distorted beyond reasonably predictable outcome norms.

For example NATO didn't fight the Soviet bloc in a hot war, yet trained to do so,
& ran hard combat training scenarios against their own types.

& RAF Lightning jockeys always fancied their chances in A2A manoeuvres versus  Phantom,  Tornado & F-104s in those `70s-80s NATO training encounters.
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Offline Mister Fork

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Re: Air Superiority Fighter of 60th-70th
« Reply #51 on: December 10, 2013, 04:51:31 PM »
Combat usage can make or break warplane reputations, yet if the operators are poorly matched in
level of competence, or asymmetric combat situations - then outcomes can be distorted beyond reasonably predictable outcome norms.

For example NATO didn't fight the Soviet bloc in a hot war, yet trained to do so,
& ran hard combat training scenarios against their own types.

& RAF Lightning jockeys always fancied their chances in A2A manoeuvres versus  Phantom,  Tornado & F-104s in those `70s-80s NATO training encounters.
As Chuck Yeager said: "it's the man, not the machine" that will win a dogfight.
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Air Superiority Fighter of 60th-70th
« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2013, 10:40:33 PM »
As Chuck Yeager said: "it's the man, not the machine" that will win a dogfight.
A well known saying in the fighter world; "Hamburger is still hamburger, not matter what you wrap it in".



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Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Air Superiority Fighter of 60th-70th
« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2013, 10:51:00 PM »
& which would you rather chow down on, a $2.00 Mc Dubious..
or a quality $10.00  super-gourmet burger?

For sure an ace will,  vs a newbie [to quote Yeager] 'wax his fanny'  in relatively similar types,
but pilots of fairly equal ability & who well know the flying attributes of both aircraft,
- will give the better performing plane - due justice..
"Cybermen don't make promises..
Such ideas have no value."

Offline artik

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Re: Air Superiority Fighter of 60th-70th
« Reply #54 on: December 11, 2013, 03:24:33 AM »
To be honest I think one of the important features of good aircraft is reasonable maintenance cost.

If you want to have well trained air force, they should fly... a lot, in different kinds of environments. If a plane costs a lot, its flight time costs a lot and its maintenance is time consuming... no matter how good the plane, it wouldn't be able to fly.

For example, in Battle of Britain, the Hurricanes did all the job also they were clearly inferior to Spitfires and 109s... But, they were much easier to produce and maintain. It took about 26 minutes to refuel and rearm Spitfire, while it took only 9 minutes for Hurricane - and it is a huge difference.

The short turnaround times and high sortie generation rate is highly critical. It is something that was mastered by Israeli Air Force that compensated the numerical inferiority by keeping the aircraft in the air.

Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline B3YT

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Re: Air Superiority Fighter of 60th-70th
« Reply #55 on: December 11, 2013, 12:00:19 PM »
My Grandfather worked on Huricanes in the DAF (just missing out on the BoB as he was in crew training in South Wales) . He often commented on how much more rugged the Hurricane was , easier to repair ( The stole bamboo canes from a guys garden to repair the rear fuselage  , they also cut up  the officers mess while in the desert to use for new wing covering as there was no canvass available for doping) .  the performance discrepancy between the Spitfire Mk Ia and hurricane Mk Ia was of no real issue until the Mk V spit came along .

The Hurricane had fantastic attributes that neither the spit or 109 had , such as stable gun platform , docile handling , the neutral sensitivity between the ailerons and elevators (which the spit did not have , the elevator control was overly sensitive)   good control on the ground.  When you look at records hurricanes shot down as many single and twin engined fighters than the spit fire though it was called inferior .   One example my grandfather saw was a hurricane coming back to land with the pilot not realising that  he had a 4ft hole blown through his wing and the majority of his tail missing . The aircraft was airworthy within 2 hours .  On another repair they had to use bicycle parts to repair .
   
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Air Superiority Fighter of 60th-70th
« Reply #56 on: December 11, 2013, 12:45:40 PM »
& which would you rather chow down on, a $2.00 Mc Dubious..
or a quality $10.00  super-gourmet burger?

For sure an ace will,  vs a newbie [to quote Yeager] 'wax his fanny'  in relatively similar types,
but pilots of fairly equal ability & who well know the flying attributes of both aircraft,
- will give the better performing plane - due justice..
The $10.00 burger is still hamburger.  You miss the point.



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Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Air Superiority Fighter of 60th-70th
« Reply #57 on: December 11, 2013, 02:33:10 PM »
& the point is?

The pilot is the hamburger, since he is 'wrapped' in the plane?

Then the quality of the 'meat' outweighs the concern about the rest?

So an ace (like Yeager) would be a quality gourmet unit compared
to a $2.00 Mc Dogmeat burger?

Isn't that the point?
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Such ideas have no value."

Offline Fulcrum

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Re: Air Superiority Fighter of 60th-70th
« Reply #58 on: December 11, 2013, 02:40:54 PM »
Does anyone really consider a McAnything "real food" these days?  :D
Going by "Hoplite" now. :)

Offline Puma44

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Re: Air Superiority Fighter of 60th-70th
« Reply #59 on: December 11, 2013, 05:08:04 PM »
& the point is?

The pilot is the hamburger, since he is 'wrapped' in the plane?

Then the quality of the 'meat' outweighs the concern about the rest?

So an ace (like Yeager) would be a quality gourmet unit compared
to a $2.00 Mc Dogmeat burger?

Isn't that the point?
Since you seem to need to be contrary vs open minded, you'll never get the point.  END OF CONVERSATION.



All gave some, Some gave all