How the hell do you do that?

[Toad]

I've seen it, I don't know how to do it and I don't want to know how to do it.

I'd like to believe it is entirely net lag or something like that.

I'll just say I routinely see combat loaded fighter aircraft do things that a Pitts S-2B or an Extra 300 couldn't pull off.... and see the same guy do it multiple times in an extended engagement.

Now, is it net lag, pilot skill, gaming the game or what?

Probably "or what". I'm sure lag plays a role, as does the unavoidable reduction in visual clues that a relatively small 2D monitor environment causes.

It's also a skill to learn to do it, no question. Conserving E and avoiding a stall while flopping an aircraft around like a demented jumping bean on crack is a skill. (I think, anyways)  

It's "gaming" to some extent because somewhere there must be something in the program that allows a plane to appear to do things that it couldn't do (for very long) in flight.

It's just part of the game. I still haven't learned the quick, easy, 100% foolproof counter yet. But I'm working on it and still having fun.  

[easymo]

 I have seen it twice. in both cases I had outturn the guy then chased him for awhile in a near vertical dive at speeds in excess of 400 ias. One was a P38 the other a Hog. They instantly were coming back up to HO me. I've been at this since beta. Twice out of hundreds of chases is hardly worth bringing up.

[OpIvy]

 

Originally posted by straffo:
Have a look to :
 http://www.smithandfeeble.com/tricktips/tail_slide.html  http://www.smithandfeeble.com/tricktips/index.html


and yes Gatt I was joking  

ROFL i can do that trick!  ROFL!

[lazs]

well... nash is as good as any in the hog and I've fought him (and lost) lots.   He uses a lot of good rudder work and wingovers but nothing odd it's just that he saves a little more e each time till he gets me.   The differece is that with nash I am usually pretty close up and personal and can see what he is doing but....

I have seen planes of allmost all types change direction and come back at me but they have all been from 2,000 yards or more when that happens.   Probly from closer the turn would not seem so amazing..  Also, I doubt that they have as much speed as they appear since we are now HO.
lazs

[Nash]

I've seen plenty of that neg-g stuff (I personally think it *sucks!* when people resort to that... You know who you are!!   )... But the 180 degree reversal I still have never seen... Not a single time.

I'm wondering... When I'm about to engage a con that's over 2k out, I have my view zoomed in on him so I can track what his plane is doing. Has anyone seen this reversal happen in that view? Or is it just a case of little black dot not doing what you think the little black dot should be capable of?

Someone's really gotta produce a film of this because, it's like... Ogopogo or Bigfoot. We've all pushed these planes to the farthest reaches of thier envelopes, and if an insta 180 degree reversal were possible, somehow, we would see a hell of a lot more of it. In my case, I'll have seen it at least once.

[Jigster]

Never underestimate the advantage of standing on the rudder and chopping when you see zee floppy fish.

Fun catching them wallowing around after their wing starts dropping.

[Toad]

I'm not specifically addressing the "180 bat turn" although I think I have seen this once or twice (once in a small zoom mode).

I'm talking about when you clearly outmaneuver a guy, end up on his 6 and he goes to a "modified" scissors defense.

I say modified, because I have never read of or seen demonstrated a "scissors" that has the plane in front breaking to one side, flopping around to 6 different aspects in about 2 seconds before finally reversing again.

"He's breaking hi/right! No! low/left! No, it's an inverted push! He's rolling! No, he's diving! It's a Split-S! NO! an Immel!"

All in a flash and all, apparently, without losing much E.

Usually, I just pull into a yo-yo and try to reacquire when he steadies out a bit. Doesn't always work. Sometimes they used the "demented jumping bean on crack" maneuver to get behind me with enough E left to bring the nose to bear. Oops!  

[MiG Eater]

 

Originally posted by Lephturn:

I've never seen this.  I'd love to see a film of it.

Leph, I've filmed a couple of these during one engagement where the airplane would shoot off 90 degrees from the apparent direction of flight.  I hope the film captured what was seen live.  In about a second, the airplane would go from ahead, out of guns range, to 1000 yds at my six oclock heading the opposite way.  If timed better or if I hadn't been so close, the maneuver would have put his nose on mine for a head-on.  

I think part of it results from the instantaneous pitch rate available in an F4U (and other planes, but the Corsair especially) at certain airspeeds.  Its just fast enough to avoid a snap roll with a wing drop and slow enough to prevent a total blackout.  The graphics don't seem to update fast enough for the FE's to see this change.  Several times I've seen airplanes appear to out run shells on an otherwise good deflection shot.  The airplanes didn't actually outrun the shells but as the FE updated the new position of the bandit, the image would slew very quickly then slow down.  Other times, the image would appear to stand still before crossing rapidly past the windscreen.  Some people have capitalized on this by using it intentionally and some cause it without realizing its happening. I saw a lot of this in tour 14 when people were flying higher and able to convert the alt to an airspeed that would allow them to do this over and over.  One tactic against a poor accelerating a/c is to force them to get slow on the deck where they can't use the altitude to gain the needed speed in a dive.  

In any case, I'll drag the film out and forward it.

MiG

[StSanta]

Lag induced stick stirring. One well known pilot did it again yesterday and i ended up being killed by him twice in a 1v2 (he dinnae like the odds, so ran til the favoured him more).

First running, then 1v2 (by this time I was determined to get the runner no matter what, just to show im that running doesn't always work. I'd go through acks to gettim if needed), then negative g flip flopping, usually pushing the stick all the way forward and to the left or right, then 180-270 degree instant rolls, microwarps. Very characteristic flying style.

Needless to say; I got a bit miffed. And let it fly on ch1.

Only deaths I have so far is to a flip flopping UFO stick stirrer   .

Not that it matters, except in the heat of combat. Fortunately most times, the anger stuff wears off within 5 minutes for me   .

5 minutes is still plenty o time to make a fool outta yerself  

------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"

[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 04-04-2001).]

[Pepe]

IMO, redouts are way too forgiving.

This neg-manouvers are a ticket to death in RL, and here you can practise them with relative impunity.

And the whole blackout/redout should need a tweak. I think if you severely blackout, auto-pilot should not be an option. You should lose control for a while.

Cheers,

Pepe

[lazs]

well.... thot I might add... The WORST "floppy fish" move I have seen in AH would not even be noticed in WB.   I was so sick of the standard floppy fish move by every LW plane in WB.  It was pretty much the standard and the only move... micro warps, floppy fish, we have to kick back and realize just how good we got it here.   One hour in WB and you will be embarassed to even mention warps or floppy fish in AH...
lazs

[CRASH]

I totally agree...severe blackouts should last 20 seconds (there's plenty of research data to get the timing right)  or more with lose of plane control.  Severe redouts should also penalize the pilot in some way.

CRASH  

 

Originally posted by Pepe:
IMO, redouts are way too forgiving.

This neg-manouvers are a ticket to death in RL, and here you can practise them with relative impunity.

And the whole blackout/redout should need a tweak. I think if you severely blackout, auto-pilot should not be an option. You should lose control for a while.

Cheers,

Pepe

[DmdStuB]

I have also seen this flip-flop stuff.  It reminds me of a bootlegger turn in a car.  
I'll be gaining on a guys 6 and then I'll see what looks like a wing waggle and then we are miraculously HO.

StuB