Warthunder videos

[danny76]

I like War Thunder though.

 Plus the challenges to get new decals and upgrades is cool

Now I have a reason to play it

[tunnelrat]

Icons + digital ranging = Not Realistic.  Sorry.

[Brooke]

Icons + digital ranging = Not Realistic.  Sorry.

Compared to alternatives, you are wrong.  Sorry.

[zack1234]

Being told what to fly biplanes is not my scene

[tunnelrat]

Compared to alternatives, you are wrong.  Sorry.

A short snippet of realistic flying without automatic spotting, automatic aircraft identification, and continuously computed range to target:

http://www.twitch.tv/pand_twb/c/4123578

Spotting camo painted planes against ground cover is NOT simple in real life, not to mention the countless tales of planes bouncing unaware pilots (because they don't get a massive flashing warning).

This isn't about what is the best for gameplay, this is about realism.  Icons, ID, and continuously computed ranging removes 3 vital components:

1.  Finding the enemy.

2.  Determining what he is, and therefore his options.

3.  How far any given plane is in relation to you for angles, rate of closure, and convergence.

You have literally no argument here... I appreciate your passion for Aces High, and the selfless dedication and time you've put into it, but this is even worse than your assertion that Warthunder looks worse than Aces, "like flying in a painting" I believe were your exact words.  I am not at all saying that Aces is less of a game for its icons, nor am I passively advocating that Aces REMOVE icons in any way shape or form (though I know a dozen players that would return if it were to be done or at least modified from its current form, there are probably hundreds that would leave).

When I am in a rolling scissors, and I can literally snap-glance for 1/10th of a second to see that big red neon sign under me, there is simply no way that pilot can visually evade me.  There was no such technology in the timeframe we are recreating in either game.

Icons make for more accessible game play, but they do not make for realism.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

A short snippet of realistic flying without automatic spotting, automatic aircraft identification, and continuously computed range to target:

http://www.twitch.tv/pand_twb/c/4123578

Spotting camo painted planes against ground cover is NOT simple in real life, not to mention the countless tales of planes bouncing unaware pilots (because they don't get a massive flashing warning).

This isn't about what is the best for gameplay, this is about realism.  Icons, ID, and continuously computed ranging removes 3 vital components:

1.  Finding the enemy.

2.  Determining what he is, and therefore his options.

3.  How far any given plane is in relation to you for angles, rate of closure, and convergence.

You have literally no argument here... I appreciate your passion for Aces High, and the selfless dedication and time you've put into it, but this is even worse than your assertion that Warthunder looks worse than Aces, "like flying in a painting" I believe were your exact words.  I am not at all saying that Aces is less of a game for its icons, nor am I passively advocating that Aces REMOVE icons in any way shape or form (though I know a dozen players that would return if it were to be done or at least modified from its current form, there are probably hundreds that would leave).

When I am in a rolling scissors, and I can literally snap-glance for 1/10th of a second to see that big red neon sign under me, there is simply no way that pilot can visually evade me.  There was no such technology in the timeframe we are recreating in either game.

Icons make for more accessible game play, but they do not make for realism.

In real life you can spot objects much further than from a 2D crappy computer screen. So having no icons or any visual extras is much harder than real life.

[tunnelrat]

In real life you can spot objects much further than from a 2D crappy computer screen. So having no icons or any visual extras is much harder than real life.

In some cases, engine dependent/screen dependent, I would agree that there are situations that spotting in a real plane would be easier than on a PC screen.

However, the 3-fold combo I listed above is swinging the pendulum much further in the unrealistic direction than pure zero icons sways it toward "harder".

[Skuzzy]

In real life you can spot objects much further than from a 2D crappy computer screen. So having no icons or any visual extras is much harder than real life.

100 percent correct.

Our philosophy is quite simple.  At the end of the day Aces High is about who is the best pilot.  Not who has the best luck with their mechanics.  Not who has the best monitor.  Or who has the best video card.  Or who has the best Internet connection.

We offer world class flight models which are have no cheesy random failures or random add-ons.  Yes, I said "cheesy".

If you win the fight, it is because you are better than the pilot you just shot down.  We think it should be about the pilot, not the environment.

ICONS are a tool to make up for the lack of vision available on a computer screen.  They allow the pilot more time to focus on the fight, not the game mechanics.

[tunnelrat]

100 percent correct.

Our philosophy is quite simple.  At the end of the day Aces High is about who is the best pilot.  Not who has the best luck with their mechanics.  Not who has the best monitor.  Or who has the best video card.  Or who has the best Internet connection.

We offer world class flight models which are have no cheesy random failures or random add-ons.  Yes, I said "cheesy".

If you win the fight, it is because you are better than the pilot you just shot down.  We think it should be about the pilot, not the environment.

ICONS are a tool to make up for the lack of vision available on a computer screen.  They allow the pilot more time to focus on the fight, not the game mechanics.

Wow man, if that's the case, you should take a serious look at both FSOs and the AVA arena, because those apparently don't follow your vision.

Aces High isn't about who is the best pilot, it's about who is the best at Aces High... why can't we just be happy with that?  I'm back because it's a superb amount of fun and excitement, but it's intellectually dishonest to say that the way the icons are set up in the MA are about realism and not about fun.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Wow man, if that's the case, you should take a serious look at both FSOs and the AVA arena, because those apparently don't follow your vision.

Aces High isn't about who is the best pilot, it's about who is the best at Aces High... why can't we just be happy with that?  I'm back because it's a superb amount of fun and excitement, but it's intellectually dishonest to say that the way the icons are set up in the MA are about realism and not about fun.

If pilots would fly with a tube taped in front of their faces with one eye blind to remove depth perception, limiting their field of vision to the postage stamp size screen size, yes - it would be realistic flying with no icons. Real life combines a wide peripheral vision with enhanced movement perception to 3D depth perception. Lack of these (along with limited resolution) makes a screen a no contender.

[Skuzzy]

I never said the ICONS were about realism.  I said they are an aid to compensate for the lack of input a real world pilot has.

Special Events have specific goals, but when you engage another pilot it is about who the better pilot is.

Turning off ICONs makes it more difficult for people.  This does not translate to reality.  It is just a different game mechanic.  Just like the field of view.  Some games use a 30 to 35 degree field of view.  Not realistic at all.  On the other hand, a 106 degree field of view is not realistic either.  They are just game mechanics.  Some are used to help increase performance.  Others are used to see more on our flat panels.

If pilots would fly with a tube taped in front of their faces with one eye blind to remove depth perception, limiting their field of vision to the postage stamp size screen size, yes - it would be realistic flying with no icons.

Correct again.  I am getting worried.

[Latrobe]

100 percent correct.

Our philosophy is quite simple.  At the end of the day Aces High is about who is the best pilot.  Not who has the best luck with their mechanics.  Not who has the best monitor.  Or who has the best video card.  Or who has the best Internet connection.

We offer world class flight models which are have no cheesy random failures or random add-ons.  Yes, I said "cheesy".

If you win the fight, it is because you are better than the pilot you just shot down.  We think it should be about the pilot, not the environment.

ICONS are a tool to make up for the lack of vision available on a computer screen.  They allow the pilot more time to focus on the fight, not the game mechanics.

Skuzzy agrees with my views! 

[Brooke]

Spotting camo painted planes against ground cover is NOT simple in real life

In my experience flying at Air Combat USA, where they use camo-painted planes against ground cover, yes, it is simple in real life.

, not to mention the countless tales of planes bouncing unaware pilots (because they don't get a massive flashing warning).

Except in the case of coming out of the sun, that typically happened because they weren't looking at the plane as it came in close enough to attack, not because they were looking at it but didn't see it.  That happens occasionally to people in Aces High, too, when people don't have dot radar, such as in scenarios.

This isn't about what is the best for gameplay, this is about realism. . . [etc.]

In addition to some dogfights against camouflaged aircraft, I had a course on vision, using the book "Vision: A Computational Investigation into the Human Representation and Processing of Visual Information," by David Marr.  That was back in the early 1990's, so I can't claim to remember every detail, but there are at least a couple of significant aspects that stand out for me.

One is seeing aircraft at long distance.  That's where you can miss planes even when you look at them.  That's when there shouldn't be icons.  The other is seeing them at shorter distance.  That's where, in real life, you don't have much trouble seeing them.  It's because your eye has excellent resolution, excellent ability to differentiate colors, even slightly different shades of colors or textures, and excellent ability for motion of an object to make it stand out for you (i.e., an aircraft on your 6 is not like a truck parked and unmoving in among bushes).  These aspects are only partially replicated in a computer-monitor environment.  In a game, there is less resolution, differential shading, differential luminosity, and differential texture on the plane and its background compared to viewed motion in real life, and very significantly the game environment has the ability to have camo that much-more-closely matches a background color, luminosity, texture, etc., which never happens in real life.

To compensate for those effects in a game environment, at some closer-in range, you need to enhance the visibility of the camouflaged object.  One way of doing this is using icons.  There are other ways, but icons are OK.  If you do nothing, you are making it much, much harder to see the aircraft than a person has in real life, and so it is less realistic to do nothing.

As for range, that also presents a lot of difference between real-life and the computer-monitor environment.  Without any range on your target, it is much harder to estimate range than in real life.  With range shown on an icon, it is easier.  So, you have a choice to make there, and people could debate which is more realistic, range shown or no range shown.

You have literally no argument here...

I think that I literally do.  

I appreciate your passion for Aces High, and the selfless dedication and time you've put into it,

Thank you.  I also appreciate that comments here (even if I disagree with them) are usually in the spirit of suggestions for the better.

but this is even worse than your assertion that Warthunder looks worse than Aces, "like flying in a painting" I believe were your exact words. 

To me, these:




look painted whereas these:






do not.

[danny76]

^^^^ Agree wholeheartedly

[tunnelrat]

Look guys, I re-upped my Aces account like a week ago, if that.  In that time, I've played Aces for 10 hours, and War Thunder for about 20 minutes...  I've had so many absolutely intense fights (in Aces) I cannot even count them, have had to get up and walk away from the computer <--- btw my wife hates HTC for having to listen to me regale her with my newb exploits, now I am staring down the barrel of about $800 worth of "stuff" she HAS to have to join us (simply because I have it)... though I am looking forward to her joining the game!

I'm not here to either piss on the game, or to declare superiority of some other game (Don't even get me started about Queue-Thunder).

But I'm also not going to attempt to have an objective conversation with the internal cabinet of the [strikethrough]People's Party[/strikethrough] Free Republic of Aces High, and be told the urine streaming down my leg is rain.

NO icons may indeed by less realistic than real life.  You know what is orders of magnitude less realistic than that?

1.  Auto enemy/friendly indicator (though crucial for a mixed plane set, unrealistic)  <--- Millions of man-hours spent worldwide on aircraft identification are on my side here.

2.  Instant contrasting visual indicator from 6k removes any chance of surprise for all but a low 6 approach on someone simply not looking.  <--- mountains of historical accounts of aircraft bouncing/being bounced from the clouds, sun, above, below, behind are on my side here.

3.  Instant aircraft identification, down to the exact model at close range <--- everyone is instantly Chuck Yeager now when it comes to knowing what they are up against.

4.  Continuously computed digital ranging <--- Everyone gets Firefox avionics now.


Again, and let me be absolutely clear here, I'm not advocating anything other than a purely sensible and objective approach to the topic here... not bashing Aces, or praising any other game.  The bottom line is, while you may believe that NO icons are harder than real life, the combination of the above 4 factors is an order of magnitude easier than real life.

While I can agree that AH MA icons certainly EVEN the playing field, you are removing key factors that again point to the best man not being the best pilot, but simply the best at Aces High.  I am not sure why this assertion causes so much hate and discontent.

It doesn't matter who is better at A/C ID.  

It doesn't matter who is better at spotting, and overall SA - while still a grand measurable indicator of skill in Aces, as the playing field is leveled - is reduced to looking for a color, not a shape, in some cases.  (For those of us that are color blind, finding the best compromise for colors of three different countries against differing terrain is a large disadvantage.)  Your advantage over a pilot in a real furball is simply undeniable... you can assess the situation, determine heading, closure/separation, plane type, etc in a fraction of the time it would take someone trying to do this by sight, "2d monitor" be damned.

And the digital ranging... pilots spent time learning when to fire, based upon their gunsight/enemy aircraft (which first, of course, had to be manually ID'd) orientation.

My opinion may not be popular here, but I have what a bunch of you lack: Perspective.  I've poured hours into Aces High without pissing on it, and I've poured hours into WarThunder without pissing on it (Okay... I have belly-ached to high-pitched 13 year old girl levels about both games, but I don't PISS on either)

Here is a visual representation of my opinion of MA icons vs no icons at all:





In closing, I cannot stress enough that I am simply stating my objective opinion here.  I have no agenda, and no axe to grind, and please do not confuse my levity with sarcasm.

I think it goes without saying that while Aces doesn't cater to a billion arcade "pilots" with precision mouse aim, it DOES cater to a much wider audience than "Hard Core Simmers".  

Don't take a steaming dump on WT's simulation mode all the same... it's the ONLY WT mode worth playing if you fancy yourself an air combat enthusiast, and there are far less players there than AH at any given time.  I've also seen none of you in this thread there.  

I very much enjoy distilled spirits... a good whiskey or vodka is my passion, but that doesn't mean I can't get excited over a beer or cider now and then.