Ki-84 vs FM2

[ink]

Ink,

The problem is that if the A6M5 gets the FM2 alone there aren't anymore team tactics to use and the FM2's advantages against the A6M5 are considerably weaker than the A6M5's advantages over the FM2 in a one on one.  Being tougher doesn't help if you can't avoid being shot and the enemy has more than enough firepower to destroy you.  Great guns don't help, and his frailty doesn't hurt him, if you can't get those guns on him.

I've spent a lot of time in A6Ms in AH and while it is certainly no Ki-84, it is still quite capable when flown well.

to quote you..."capable when flown well"
any plane (for the most part) is capable when flown well.


IMO the ability to take a good beating...is more important.

obviously if the differences in the planes performance is so far great then we are talking a huge difference...here I think the difference in performance don't out weigh the extreme differences in each planes ability to take damage.

which is extreme....each end of the scale.

[Karnak]

to quote you..."capable when flown well"
any plane (for the most part) is capable when flown well.


IMO the ability to take a good beating...is more important.

obviously if the differences in the planes performance is so far great then we are talking a huge difference...here I think the difference in performance don't out weigh the extreme differences in each planes ability to take damage.

which is extreme....each end of the scale.

You're reading too much into the "well flown" bit.  A6Ms are reasonably effective when competently flown.  More effective than many other fighters.  I don't mean my the top 5% of players, I mean by the top 50% of players.

[Wiley]

IMO the ability to take a good beating...is more important.

In a duel, I don't think it's nearly as critical.  I generally find he either has no shot, or you're dead.  Minor damage doesn't factor in all that often IMO.

Wiley.

[BaldEagl]

I concur with the other posts in the general theme of 'the vertical.'

What I've noticed with the 'turny birds' is that there is a tendency to take everything into the turn almost immediately. Stall fighting/vertical remains a big part of the match, since you are trading "e" for alt, which simply puts most of the "e" into the bank.

Also, in your defensive turn it strikes me that you didn't pull hard enough. You attempted rolling scissors, which is a great step for something like the 190, though the Ki-84 should be able to turn hard enough to force an overshoot of most birds, then roll.

E (energy) is the combination of speed (kinetic energy) and altutude (potential energy).  You can't trade E for altitude but you can trade the speed component of E for altitude.  It's hard to decipher from your post if that's what you meant or if you meant that some planes can use excess HP to gain an altitude (E) advantage.  I suspect the latter since you were talking about stall fighting.


As to the Zeke vs Grumman fight the Zeke is generally the better performer in the context that most consider (speed, climb rate, turn rate).  Less evident the Zeke's probably still better in acceleration (excess HP), I'm unsure of low speed stability (both flaps in and flaps out) while the Grumman hold the cards in high speed roll rate and dive rate along with durability as Ink's already mentioned.  Gun packages are approximately equal with hitting power going to the Zeke and rate of fire going to the Grumman.

If you can't exploit the few advantages the Grumman has the fight isn't lost.  You have to instead exploit the pilot.  Winning a defensive barrel roll, rolling scissor or brakes on overshoot are a few tricks in the bag that immediately come to mind and if the Zeke's on your six and you can't shake him simply keeping your wings out of plane with his might buy you the time to consider other options or for him to make a mistake.

The point being if you aren't considering every aspect of performance and ACM you're never going to beat a plane that's statistically better than the one your in and never going to progress as a virtual pilot.

[Muzzy]

In my experience, your opponent's lack of durability cannot be exploited if you can't get the shot. A zero pilot who knows you're coming can easily avoid you, and if he climbs out, he can secure an energy advantage before you can get guns on him. I've dueled a few good zeke pilots and I can tell you, underestimating that plane, especially when you're flying an FM2, is a mistake, just as underestimating an FM2 is a mistake if you fly almost any other plane.

[Triton28]

Durability can most certainly decide the fight.  The FM2 has to play the patience game.  If he does and the Zero makes a mistake he'll light it on fire if his guns are aimed right.

That said, I'd probably want to be in the Zero in a 1v1.   

[surfinn]

Only 1v1 fight I have ever lost in the Fm2 vrs a KI84 was against Ink. He didn't leave the fight unmarked or with a easy victory.  He knows what hes talking about in other words:) Fm2 vrs a Zeke totally depends on alt of each aircraft and the guy behind the stick of each ac. Ive shot down the best Zeke pilots in the ma and have been owned by them the very next fight.

[Muzzy]

Yeah, winning against the zeke is kind of dependent on e-states, but as I pointed out, co-alt and co-e with equal pilots, the zeke has an advantage.

[BaldEagl]

Yeah, winning against the zeke is kind of dependent on e-states, but as I pointed out, co-alt and co-e with equal pilots, the zeke has an advantage.

And just how often do you meet opponents co-alt and co-E with equal pilots?

[ink]

Only 1v1 fight I have ever lost in the Fm2 vrs a KI84 was against Ink. He didn't leave the fight unmarked or with a easy victory.  He knows what hes talking about in other words:) Fm2 vrs a Zeke totally depends on alt of each aircraft and the guy behind the stick of each ac. Ive shot down the best Zeke pilots in the ma and have been owned by them the very next fight.

you sure as hell made me work for it....most other Fm2 drivers...pfft...easy peasy....they immediately start turning right away

you deployed that stuff...you know...that stuff that most dont want to learn...ACM.....

 

[Muzzy]

And just how often do you meet opponents co-alt and co-E with equal pilots?

Tuesday's and alternate Thursdays if the moon is full.

My point is simply that the zeke does have a performance edge over the FM 2. Pilot skill and e state can either negate or aggravate that advantage.

I don't really understand why this has to be such a debate. Every aircraft has a specific set of measurable qualities. Some are better,some are worse. Pilot skill and e- state can take those qualities out of the equation. Put a experienced pilot in an I-16 with altitude above a 262 taking off from a de-acked field flown by a noob with the situational awareness of Stevie Wonder and see what happens.

Is the zeke better than the FM2? Look at the performance numbers and judge for yourself. It has very specific advantages in climb rate, speed at most altitudes, and turning, and a big disadvantage in armor. So the zeke has an overall performance edge but an exploitable weakness. But that performance edge can be defeated if the FM2 pilot has better skills or an energy advantage.