Author Topic: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?  (Read 10564 times)

Offline GhostCDB

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #135 on: July 04, 2014, 11:49:18 AM »
You all are poop
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Offline glzsqd

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #136 on: July 04, 2014, 11:58:47 AM »
The amount of time and energy put into these internet fights is very frightening.

I blame all the uncureable diseases on those who are participating in this.....
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Offline BnZs

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #137 on: July 04, 2014, 01:03:33 PM »
Now let me tell you where your logic goes astray on this Shida: You are forgetting that kills per time is a scoring criterion, which is itself a reflection of the fact that humans playing a game have limited patience. Then there is the base-take aspect, involving objects on the ground. All of these things prevent infinite jockeying for advantage with no engagement occurring, among pilot-hunters striving to bag the most kills. I myself consider myself a "hunter" in the MA most of the time, yet I hardly ever go over 12K...

Furthermore, let's say jets were the only plane available in the arena. The speed and turn aspects all being identical, in combination with the above factors it would result in-guess what-furballs. Very fast furballs with huge turning radii, but still furballs.

Now let us introduce Tempests into this experiment. Some people would fly Tempests, not because they are so damn "honorable", but the better to make easy kills of jets that had gotten low and slow fighting other jets. Tempest pilots would complain about "dang running and picking 262 jocks", 262 jocks would mock Tempest pilots for their "easy-mode" choice with it's great turns and Hispanos. The energy vs. angle fighter dynamic would be back in play.

BTW, I will flat tell you that all factors being equal, it is generally requires more skill and gunnery ability to ply an energy fight against against a much more maneuverable fighter than to work more straightforward angles tactics against a far less maneuverable energy fighter. That is in fact why the general stereotype is "I reversed that 190 and he ran!!!", because on average it is easier to reverse that 190 than it is for him to kill you. Using  190 versus a Spitfire for an example, the 190 does NOT have an easier time overcoming the opponent in engaged maneuvering, quite the opposite. The advantage the 190 has is that it can engage and disengage at will, which isn't nearly as ultra-desirable in a game where no one really dies as it is in real life.

 If one disagrees with me on this, then they are disagreeing with Robert Shaw, the guy who literally wrote the book on fighter combat. That is the primary reason anyone chooses to fly something slow that turns well versus one of the faster bricks, shooting down the opposition is much, much easier when one can turn as well or better.

The virtual environments of Aces High are BY DEFINITION an Open world / Sandbox (as I understand the terms are interchangeable). "An open world is a type of video game level design where a player can roam freely through a virtual world and is given considerable freedom in choosing how or when to approach objectives" [1].

It is YOUR interpretation which you are trying to assert on others and to assert your score or kill of others to insist you are better at the game. Yours then is the least tolerant ideology of all.


Allow me to point out a huge gulf in your logic: you claim this is the only correct or least deviant way to play the game. However your very success and your modus operandi DEPENDS on others not operating to your criteria. Your tactic, approach and philosophy can only be effected by preying on those who do turn fight, who do fly slower non BnZ aircraft, on those who do fly alone or in lesser numbers that you do. This is the reason for your mechanistic "don't give a damn" default clause. This least deviant belief of yours could not exist if everyone thought like you. All Aces High would be then would be a contest of jockying for advantage, halfway between bases at the co-alt point, everyone flying in groups of BnZ aircraft with considerable diving away and running to ack as the temporal ebb and flow went back and forth and the only kills being of those who were least robotic in their execution.





[1] Sefton, J. (11 - 07 - 07). "The roots of open-world games". GamesRadar.

« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 01:11:12 PM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline xPoisonx

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #138 on: July 04, 2014, 01:14:11 PM »
Hi my name is Ghost I am a poop

 :cheers:

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Offline GhostCDB

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #139 on: July 04, 2014, 01:15:21 PM »
I wish I was Ghost, he is my FPH


Awwww  :cool:
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Offline Zerstorer

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #140 on: July 04, 2014, 01:17:39 PM »
You all are poop

*sniffs underarm*
 
:confused:
 
:bolt:

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Offline xPoisonx

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #141 on: July 04, 2014, 01:24:09 PM »
I am a noob. I get rekt by everyone while flying my la7. My favorite engagements are ones where I can run to ack and watch it destroy my enemy.
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Offline Zerstorer

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #142 on: July 04, 2014, 01:35:56 PM »
Hey now! Not another PvP slapfest....find your own thread...I'm losing track of who hates who!  :lol
The Once and Former Fulcrum

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Offline xPoisonx

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #143 on: July 04, 2014, 01:51:44 PM »
I wish I was as cool as Ghost and Poison they are awesome people and one day I will be just like them.



 :noid
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Offline SkyRock

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #144 on: July 04, 2014, 02:03:36 PM »
Ah, go for the ad-hominem attack instead of addressing the actual core issue. Typical.


Really? I'm pretty sure I lit you up numerous times yesterday morning, one time while Kruel roped you like a champ. Of course, your next response will just claim sarcasm on your part, failure to comprehend your own sense of sarcasm on my part, or something involving cheap wingman tactics (even though it we both had them at the time).  :lol

Ah, yet another completely illogical response, bordering on the ad-hominem. Nowhere did I claim you knew nothing about ACM - on the contrary, you were the one that claimed I showed a lack of "air combat skills" and by extension, showed a lack of ACM. Interesting - you're guilty of the very thing you've accused me of. We call that hypocrisy in most circles. You then follow it up with a halfway-relevant reference to Robert Shaw, who is not an active combat pilot (I in no way mean any disrespect towards him - on the contrary, it's simply that tactics have drastically changed with modern jets and weapons and we are speaking directly about modern jets and tactics, in this case).
so this is what you really wanted with your OP....  we though so...   :aok

Triton28 - "...his stats suggest he has a healthy combination of suck and sissy!"

Offline SkyRock

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #145 on: July 04, 2014, 02:08:36 PM »
Glass houses?  :lol I respond in kind to whatever is thrown out...

like you did here?   
Ah yes...here they come. When one cant actually argue the point logically...the insults come out. Standard procedure right out of that trolling post Jugger made on the private forum, eh? What was it..."Never, ever let the lowly noobs win. Never admit you are wrong!" Or something similar?

Next up should be the mass posts from the rest of the squad.   :rofl


like I said, folks in glass houses shouldn't cast stones...  you don't want to change your name again do you?

Triton28 - "...his stats suggest he has a healthy combination of suck and sissy!"

Offline xPoisonx

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #146 on: July 04, 2014, 02:16:53 PM »
I love everyone and enjoy this amazing game HTC has created for us. I hope we can all be friends.  :angel:
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Offline Zerstorer

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #147 on: July 04, 2014, 02:36:16 PM »


:lol

like you did here?

Like I did what?  The thread was created by Skyyr...all I did was post my thoughts on HOs in the MA...which was responded to as if Id called someone's mama a name..

Thanks for your input. Say hi to Grizz for me! Havent seen him in a while....in game of course. Did he change his name?  :lol
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 02:41:53 PM by Zerstorer »
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Offline nrshida

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #148 on: July 04, 2014, 02:42:14 PM »
In a sandbox game, most all aspects of gameplay are player-driven/determined (players set the economy, the prices, the rules, the alliances, etc.).

But not determined by a minority of players who assert that everyone must see it their way otherwise they are deviant players. At least concede that people don't agree with your philosophy and see things another way. Trying to force your views on others is disrespectful, elitist and a little disturbing.

If you have evidence to substantiate your claim that score-based play is the way the game is intended to be played / least deviant way then please post it. Otherwise it is as I say YOUR subjective interpretation.


I'm a developer/programmer.

Nice. I have a Master's degree in Three Dimensional Computer Graphics and Virtual Environments.


Not true whatsoever. In fact, your very statement suggests you've never played a combat sim where e-fighting and snapshots are quite the norm (hint: we have). You imply that BnZ does not work on even grounds, or rather that a pilot that exercises it is helpless against another pilot who does the same. There is so much fundamentally wrong with your assertion that it shows a complete lack of understanding for the other half of the ACM spectrum.

Then you're saying that you don't exploit those who fly lower, slower, TnB or fly in lesser co-ordinated numbers?


Who else did this? Oh, Eric Hartmann did.

That picking barstard.


Now let me tell you where your logic goes astray on this Shida: You are forgetting that kills per time is a scoring criterion,...

I'm not really that sure you're understanding my objection BnZ. Could be that you've been arguing this corner for a long time and are overly defensive. I have nothing against the BnZ style of fighting, or HOing. It's what a minority of those people use it for that I find objectionable. I've quite enjoyed some of Skyyr's longer videos. His shorter 'I pwn <insert famous name here>' ones however put him just a little over the griefing line for me to take his more rational posts seriously.

Regarding scoring I'm afraid you completely take me out of my province there. I've played this game on and off for over four years now and it may shock you to know I have no idea how the AH scoring system works beyond the obvious k/d ratio and hits percentage. I have no idea why there is a separate attack / fighter score and in fact I don't want to know. I have a far simpler / more sophisticated was to track my progress. And I use the word progress more as a placeholder in the absence of a better one.


BTW, I will flat tell you that all factors being equal, it is generally requires more skill and gunnery ability to ply an energy fight against against a much more maneuverable fighter than to work more straightforward angles tactics against a far less maneuverable energy fighter.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/qlpo3ef8m3p96bw/Brewster_fight.ahf

When I'm not at the furbal lake I'm often trawling around the MA low down inviting an attack from those with superior energy and /or numbers. As an off-peak hours player and one who flies alone I have found this is about the only way I can get any action at all. I should say 80-90% of my merges in the MA start with the opponent on my high six.

Do you think I'd still be able to play this game if the score was important to me?


Happy Friday Pipz!
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #149 on: July 04, 2014, 03:21:14 PM »
But not determined by a minority of players who assert that everyone must see it their way otherwise they are deviant players. At least concede that people don't agree with your philosophy and see things another way. Trying to force your views on others is disrespectful, elitist and a little disturbing.

Again, you completely misunderstand my point, almost to the exact opposite.

I have no wish to subject my views on anyone else, and I readily admit that others have different philosophies - I've never debated this. However, when someone comes in and claims that "Well, the 'proper' way is to do it this way" (I'm paraphrasing the argument that the MA is about fights and honor), then I will always point out that they are, in fact, arbitrary and deviant. That was my only point.

Yet again, the irony lies in the fact of others claiming we're asserting our philosophy, when in reality it's really them arguing how theirs is correct ("you could've given him a good fight, but you didn't!") when it, objectively, is not. It might be their preference, and I recognize that, but the validity ends there (see below).

If you have evidence to substantiate your claim that score-based play is the way the game is intended to be played / least deviant way then please post it. Otherwise it is as I say YOUR subjective interpretation.

Tour winners are determined based on stats. In fact, the homepage says, quote, "Latest Tour Winners." The winners are determined based on kills, rate of kills over time, accuracy, etc. Turnfighting vs BnZ, honor vs quick and easy kills - none of those are considered. Similarly, the MA is won/reset after X bases are captured. It doesn't matter who flew the most efficiently or had the most effective bombing runs - the team with the most captured bases wins.

The game is meant to be played based on completing objectives. How one goes about completing those objectives is up to them and them alone. However, for one player to complain or otherwise chastise another player for completing those objectives simply because the player in question is disregarding arbitrary ideas of honor, fun, and so on, is quite illogical. Put another way, it's the complaining players' attempt to try to force another player to abide by their arbitrary rules.

Attacking or otherwise pursuing a player who quickly kills another, without giving the other a fair chance, goes against the very basis of objectivity. The goal of the game, and the scoring mechanisms, are based around killing the other guy. How one player might kill another is irrelevant, but for a player to complain that a kill was not "honorable," "fair," etc., that is indeed deviant.

Then you're saying that you don't exploit those who fly lower, slower, TnB or fly in lesser co-ordinated numbers?

I think you're implying that there is some sort of unfair (or otherwise unchallenging) "exploitation" going on of BnZ vs TnB, when in reality it is nothing more than a logic problem. You can offensively fight BnZ with BnZ (correct called energy tactics), but you can't offensively fight BnZ with TnB, you can only go defensive and hope to turn the tables. We don't exploit it, we simply know the weaknesses of TnB and therefore we avoid it as a primary tactic. It's not our fault if others choose the TnB spectrum of fighting - they have the option of the same aircraft and tactics that we do.

That said, following Robert Shaw's dictum, a true energy fight should devolve into a rolling scissors. Provided there is no clear winner of the rolling scissors, the fight will then devolve into a TnB situation. You seem to imply that once a BnZ fighter encounters another, it's game over. The truth is far from that, and many times the best turnfights evolve from energy fights where neither aircraft can gain an energy advantage. We're not opposed to TnB at all, it simply has a very specific use.

Regarding engaging lesser numbers of aircraft - I'm not sure where you drew that conclusion from. In most cases, we're either evenly matched or actually outnumbered. Sure, there's situations where we outnumber the other guys, but we don't look for lesser numbers anymore than we look for any other kind of fight. We simply look for the biggest dar bar and head for it.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 03:37:57 PM by Skyyr »
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A few moments later...

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