Author Topic: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?  (Read 10559 times)

Offline Skyyr

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #120 on: July 03, 2014, 10:03:13 PM »
It's your 15$ do what you want with it.  :salute

Well said! :salute
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Offline BnZs

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #121 on: July 03, 2014, 10:22:23 PM »
That's just rhetoric so people can satisfy immediate and pressing needs. Indeed you hear 'don't run' a lot but seldom 'stop turning!'. I think overall we can agree that BnZ is safer then TnB? That is reflected even in the progression of aircraft design & tactics I think. Hence it maybe being an obvious choice for those to whom score and winning is important. Cough.
In the real world where never dying is pretty darn important to a pilot, speed is paramount. In the arena, this is not necessarily so. Because there is a kills/time component, you can "safety" yourself right out of a good score. Note that the most flown unperked ride, the P-51D, while falling firmly into the boom and zoom category, is slower than several other contenders at typical ma alt, and may hold the number 1 slot due as much to culture and ordnance load as to effectiveness as a fighter. The second most popular fighter, the SpitXVI, is nowhere near the premiere speed demon of the LWMA, yet does everything else well.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #122 on: July 03, 2014, 11:01:31 PM »
In the real world where never dying is pretty darn important to a pilot, speed is paramount. In the arena, this is not necessarily so. Because there is a kills/time component, you can "safety" yourself right out of a good score. Note that the most flown unperked ride, the P-51D, while falling firmly into the boom and zoom category, is slower than several other contenders at typical ma alt, and may hold the number 1 slot due as much to culture and ordnance load as to effectiveness as a fighter. The second most popular fighter, the SpitXVI, is nowhere near the premiere speed demon of the LWMA, yet does everything else well.

I don't think speed is necessarily the reason why most people choose an aircraft. BnZ when performed to a high standard is also a little more complex than pulling back on the stick when in doubt which makes things like the Spit16 more accessible I should say.

It's just my opinion but I think TnB is more risky because it is energy expensive which pushes you continually lower (assuming the thrust our aircraft has available), your SA degrades as you pull hard and have less ability to orient and you have to take a bottom-up approach, often concentrating on one guy very deeply at the expense of others. BnZ allows you to maintain e and alt, affords a top-down SA, maintains a better orientation like where your escape vector is and aircraft with good BnZ attributes often retain the ability to escape at will usually by out-diving more manoeuvrable and better sustained climbing aircraft. Adding wingmen I think makes BnZ exponentially more effective while with TnB it's only a linear increase.


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Offline nrshida

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #123 on: July 03, 2014, 11:25:05 PM »
I'll concede otherwise when you show me an MA map that was won based on "most honorable flying by X team," or a KOTH winner that was selected because they demonstrated the "best example of stylish flying yet!"

You are extraordinarily rigid in your thinking Skyyr, even when the evidence is all around you that many people do not share your view (or indeed do not have to). I don't know where the word stylish came from, I did not use it.


Like it or not, every mechanic of this game is either based on or measured by score and objectives. The pretense of honor and "a good all around time" taking precedence over these items is nothing more than a fantasy. Those who would argue otherwise are either delusional or simply do not care about playing the game as it was intended to be played. That is the truth of the matter, regardless of the general consensus. Arguing otherwise is akin to claiming the point of investing is not to end up with the most money, but rather to enjoy the thrill and excitement of making investments in and of themselves.

Firstly you are making assumptions about me when I have not used the word honour at all, nor having "a good all around time". Your financial analogy is irrelevant in a recreational activity (even though I do know people who dabble for fun).

No, playing to measure yourself through score is one possible activity within this virtual environment. Score is there if you want to pay attention to it but it is not required, taking bases is possible not required, winning the war or a fight by all and every means possible is not required. Even if you can't imagine beyond the confines of your own interpretation and cultural values you must surely be aware that others think differently, even if you don't agree with them?


So with your result-centric philosophy in mind then we are really getting now to the core of the matter. When you post your small films which are essentially about you defeating another player (such as Nishizawa at the start of this thread) you are essentially asserting that you are superior to him. Regardless of what he says, how he challenges your philosophy or criticizes you, no matter what grudge you guys share, you are undeniably right and he is wrong because the result - you shooting him down - is incontrovertible? The result is he died and you killed him, therefore nothing he says or does has any merit to challenge your approach and philosophy?

Is it completely beyond your reach that I, for example, do not agree with that?


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Offline Skyyr

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #124 on: July 04, 2014, 12:25:50 AM »
Your financial analogy is irrelevant in a recreational activity (even though I do know people who dabble for fun).

No, playing to measure yourself through score is one possible activity within this virtual environment. Score is there if you want to pay attention to it but it is not required, taking bases is possible not required, winning the war or a fight by all and every means possible is not required. Even if you can't imagine beyond the confines of your own interpretation and cultural values you must surely be aware that others think differently, even if you don't agree with them?

The Main Arena is not a sandbox game. It has a set of rules, guidelines, and scoring mechanisms. Sure, you can play the game any way you like, but there is only one way that the game is won and scored. Now, if you or anyone else chooses to play it differently, that's fine, but you're no longer playing the game the way it was intended to be played- I've no qualms with that. But anyone who chooses not to do that is no longer playing the game the way it was intended to be played, and so they cannot complain when someone else plays the game by its rules, nor can expect anyone else to abide by their own guidelines unless openly agreed upon.

Your response is like saying, "Well, you can score touchdowns in football, but you don't have to if you don't want to." Sure - you could do that, but when the other team marches unopposed, scores, and then wins the game, you cannot argue that "well, you didn't win according to our rules" (sounds strangely familiar to the "Oh, but you HO'd!" excuses). There are only one set of rules and scoring guidelines and those are the ones that matter. Any other rules or opinions are deviant - they are irrelevant except to those who agree to abide by them to begin with.

If you want a room where you can determine rules, guess what? They've already set one up - the DA.

So with your result-centric philosophy in mind then we are really getting now to the core of the matter. When you post your small films which are essentially about you defeating another player (such as Nishizawa at the start of this thread) you are essentially asserting that you are superior to him. Regardless of what he says, how he challenges your philosophy or criticizes you, no matter what grudge you guys share, you are undeniably right and he is wrong because the result - you shooting him down - is incontrovertible? The result is he died and you killed him, therefore nothing he says or does has any merit to challenge your approach and philosophy?

Not in the least. My goal of posting was simply to confirm that Nishizawa's claim of "h2h" was incorrect, which it was.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 12:27:33 AM by Skyyr »
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Offline Zerstorer

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #125 on: July 04, 2014, 12:35:08 AM »
Although I may have a different view of the game I find it funny so many people arguing over this. It's your 15$ do what you want with it.  :salute

Exactly.  :aok
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Offline Latrobe

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #126 on: July 04, 2014, 12:38:32 AM »
I have never ever, in my 8 years of playing this game, heard of ANY of these so called "rules" or "guidelines" that you are claiming to be in the MA. Don't even get me started on the scoring mechanics of this game. The scoring mechanics of this game is flawed and has no purpose at all other than determining who gets to take command of CV's.



Though maybe I've just been living under a rock for the last 8 years and have just not read the Aces High manual. Could you perhaps share with us what these "rules" and "guidelines" of the MA are?

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #127 on: July 04, 2014, 02:08:36 AM »
The Main Arena is not a sandbox game. It has a set of rules, guidelines, and scoring mechanisms.
What are these rules or guidelines for the MA?  

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« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 02:55:13 AM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline nrshida

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #128 on: July 04, 2014, 02:18:39 AM »
The Main Arena is not a sandbox game. It has a set of rules, guidelines, and scoring mechanisms. Sure, you can play the game any way you like, but there is only one way that the game is won and scored. Now, if you or anyone else chooses to play it differently, that's fine, but you're no longer playing the game the way it was intended to be played

The virtual environments of Aces High are BY DEFINITION an Open world / Sandbox (as I understand the terms are interchangeable). "An open world is a type of video game level design where a player can roam freely through a virtual world and is given considerable freedom in choosing how or when to approach objectives" [1].

It is YOUR interpretation which you are trying to assert on others and to assert your score or kill of others to insist you are better at the game. Yours then is the least tolerant ideology of all.


Allow me to point out a huge gulf in your logic: you claim this is the only correct or least deviant way to play the game. However your very success and your modus operandi DEPENDS on others not operating to your criteria. Your tactic, approach and philosophy can only be effected by preying on those who do turn fight, who do fly slower non BnZ aircraft, on those who do fly alone or in lesser numbers that you do. This is the reason for your mechanistic "don't give a damn" default clause. This least deviant belief of yours could not exist if everyone thought like you. All Aces High would be then would be a contest of jockying for advantage, halfway between bases at the co-alt point, everyone flying in groups of BnZ aircraft with considerable diving away and running to ack as the temporal ebb and flow went back and forth and the only kills being of those who were least robotic in their execution.





[1] Sefton, J. (11 - 07 - 07). "The roots of open-world games". GamesRadar.
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Offline ARSNishi

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #129 on: July 04, 2014, 03:28:36 AM »
This least deviant belief of yours could not exist if everyone thought like you. All Aces High would be then would be a contest of jockying for advantage, halfway between bases at the co-alt point, everyone flying in groups of BnZ aircraft with considerable diving away and running to ack as the temporal ebb and flow went back and forth and the only kills being of those who were least robotic in their execution.





[1] Sefton, J. (11 - 07 - 07). "The roots of open-world games". GamesRadar.

Omg That is a nauseating hypothetical!

 Although, on the other hand I'm sure it would be quite a humbling experience for the proponents of this mentality, as I'm equally sure these rigid thinkers have the delusional belief that they alone demonstate a mastery of E retention, Boom and zoom, Rope a dope, Hang and bang, Working the angles, etc, etc tactics and concepts.  In their hubris, they believe they are the only ones who possess the intellect to employ these concepts exclusively in game.  I submit, an ego deflation the likes of which have never been seen before in AH would take place were the above hypothetical to become a reality.  

:salute Nishizawa
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 05:05:40 AM by ARSNishi »

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Offline ARSNishi

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #130 on: July 04, 2014, 05:46:50 AM »
For the record, the above commentary was not directed at any one squad as a whole nor was it directed at those who prefer that fighting style..... Rather, only at the most vocal proponents of this "dogma". 

:salute Nishizawa

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Nishizwa in game, Nish or Nishi will work too

Offline xPoisonx

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #131 on: July 04, 2014, 06:28:48 AM »
What are these rules or guidelines for the MA?  

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Offline Copprhed

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #132 on: July 04, 2014, 08:34:00 AM »
What's ironic is that the same arguments were directed at him in FA, along with the rest of his ilk. Yes, ilk is a pejorative. He THINKS his stats are impressive, but they're just a show of his narcissism. He's a legend in his own mind. What's pathetic is that he'll NEVER get it, in game or in life. It's kind of like comparing Donald Trump to mother Teresa as to their worth to humanity.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 08:36:08 AM by Copprhed »
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Offline mechanic

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #133 on: July 04, 2014, 09:32:23 AM »


Probably everyone opining on "cheap" tactics on this thread in fact, has done some of these things, and will do them again in the future



Undoubtedly true, however most of us choose to document and share on the forums the other parts of our flying, rather than the pointless aspects that we forget and move on rapidly.
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #134 on: July 04, 2014, 10:52:38 AM »
The virtual environments of Aces High are BY DEFINITION an Open world / Sandbox (as I understand the terms are interchangeable). "An open world is a type of video game level design where a player can roam freely through a virtual world and is given considerable freedom in choosing how or when to approach objectives" [1].

Open World refers to games that allow the user to travel anywhere within the mappable game region.

Sandbox can be used to describe the same when speaking strictly about the accessible environment; however, it is more often used to describe games (usually MMORPG's) where users do not have class-restrictions, fixed rules of engagement, etc. set out before them (i.e. they can build their characters and setups any way they'd like, as you could in a sandbox). Star Wars Galaxies was such a game, where there was no restrictions on class, no stats, no in-game games, etc. Compare that to WOW, where you are restricted to classes, have set competitions, battles, etc. That is typically what is meant by "sandbox" environment.

In a sandbox game, most all aspects of gameplay are player-driven/determined (players set the economy, the prices, the rules, the alliances, etc.). FPS and combat games, by nature, are almost never sandbox games. In that regard, the Main Arena is not a sandbox game - the DA, by comparison, could somewhat fit the description.

I'm a developer/programmer.

Allow me to point out a huge gulf in your logic: you claim this is the only correct or least deviant way to play the game. However your very success and your modus operandi DEPENDS on others not operating to your criteria. Your tactic, approach and philosophy can only be effected by preying on those who do turn fight, who do fly slower non BnZ aircraft, on those who do fly alone or in lesser numbers that you do. This is the reason for your mechanistic "don't give a damn" default clause. This least deviant belief of yours could not exist if everyone thought like you.

Not true whatsoever. In fact, your very statement suggests you've never played a combat sim where e-fighting and snapshots are quite the norm (hint: we have). You imply that BnZ does not work on even grounds, or rather that a pilot that exercises it is helpless against another pilot who does the same. There is so much fundamentally wrong with your assertion that it shows a complete lack of understanding for the other half of the ACM spectrum.

All Aces High would be then would be a contest of jockying for advantage, halfway between bases at the co-alt point, everyone flying in groups of BnZ aircraft with considerable diving away and running to ack as the temporal ebb and flow went back and forth and the only kills being of those who were least robotic in their execution.

I will grant you that it is very robotic in nature, but that does not make it unplayable. Quite the opposite, and, in fact, it's that "roboticness" (i.e. discipline) that determines the winner, and honestly, I find those fights quite enjoyable. Of course, that's irrelevant, my only point is that you seem to think that we've never encountered environment, when in fact we flew it daily for years.

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« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 11:21:41 AM by Skyyr »
Skyyr

Tours:
166 - 190
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286 - 287
290 - ---

nrshida: "I almost beat Skyyr after he took a 6 year break!"
A few moments later...

vs Shane: 26-9

"Some men just want to watch the world burn."