Mustang

[BnZs]

I have a modest proposal for you Fugi. First, figure out which planes are seeing the most usage in the LWMA, via kills+death. Lusche will have this information at his fingertips for you. Next, find a friend you know to be of your approximate skill level and fight a series of DA matches, using the Pony against the top ten most commonly used LW planes. Then switch out and let the other guy fly the Pony against whatever. At least 3 duels from each of you in the Pony for each matchup. This procedure will tend to eliminate variables resulting from situational luck or pilot skill, and mostly be a test of relative plane performance. Post the films of this experiment when you are done. If, given equal pilots, the Pony wins as often as it loses against other common LW planes, it will tend to support your position. OTOH, if the Pony loses most of these duels with equal pilots, that will tend to support my contention that the P-51D is a fairly mediocre plane for the LWMA.

[9thAFE]

In southern boy terminology:
"Man the 51b is like the 51d just souped up and handles better."

 

NICE!! Cremator

[Puma44]

It seemed to me to fly like I always assumed a mustang to be like.

Cremator, I agree.  Of course, computer lag, etc could have a lot to do with it.  Based on some time in Crazy Horse, the game's B has more of a D feel and performance, in my opinion.  

[The Fugitive]

I have a modest proposal for you Fugi. First, figure out which planes are seeing the most usage in the LWMA, via kills+death. Lusche will have this information at his fingertips for you. Next, find a friend you know to be of your approximate skill level and fight a series of DA matches, using the Pony against the top ten most commonly used LW planes. Then switch out and let the other guy fly the Pony against whatever. At least 3 duels from each of you in the Pony for each matchup. This procedure will tend to eliminate variables resulting from situational luck or pilot skill, and mostly be a test of relative plane performance. Post the films of this experiment when you are done. If, given equal pilots, the Pony wins as often as it loses against other common LW planes, it will tend to support your position. OTOH, if the Pony loses most of these duels with equal pilots, that will tend to support my contention that the P-51D is a fairly mediocre plane for the LWMA.

And here you point out exactly what Im saying. IN THE GAME, not as duels or in any books, ANYTHING can happen. With a good player at the controls the pony it is a great plane. All the numbers in the world are not going to win the fight if you dont know how to fly the plane. YES I can out turn NIKS, YES I can turn faster at speed than MOST 190s YES I can bomb better in it than MOST guys flying bombers. This is because MOST players don't know their planes. Ask Lusche for the numbers MOST players have less than stellar skills if you use the "numbers" to back it.

BigR got all those skills using a "mediocre" plane because he KNOWS his pony and the other players proved they didn't know theres as well.

You either don't understand what I'm saying or refuse to accept what Im saying. Again I should know better than to try and have a conversation with someone who is obviously NEVER wrong and can't possibly see anyone else point of view. Thanks for playing.

[The Fugitive]

Muzzy, if you haven't done so, put your guns at the same convergence point to maximize the hits in one area.  Personally, I have them all at 200 yards, as it suits my style, but whatever distance you're comfortable with.

I have a lot of films, so if you're interested, I'll find time this weekend to post the 51 vs. various-plane fights.  Just let me know.

MIR, I'd love to see a few of your films. We have had a few great knock down drag out fights and I'd like to see how you handle more than just my so-so flying.

[Vraciu]

Have you tried the B model? Puma introduced me to it here a couple weeks ago.  I found it to be much smoother, faster and agile than the D. It seemed to me to fly like I always assumed a mustang to be like. That thing is a rocket ship. I employed the same tactics I did in the D model but it seemed to get the nose around easier and gain e easier which helped in the slashing attacks.

Theres still several planes ive never flown and all that was stated above is solely my opinion as I don't know the stats of the two given planes. In southern boy terminology:

"Man the 51b is like the 51d just souped up and handles better."

What about a D with four guns vs six?

[Puma44]

And here you point out exactly what Im saying. IN THE GAME, not as duels or in any books, ANYTHING can happen. With a good player at the controls the pony it is a great plane. All the numbers in the world are not going to win the fight if you dont know how to fly the plane. YES I can out turn NIKS, YES I can turn faster at speed than MOST 190s YES I can bomb better in it than MOST guys flying bombers. This is because MOST players don't know their planes. Ask Lusche for the numbers MOST players have less than stellar skills if you use the "numbers" to back it.

BigR got all those skills using a "mediocre" plane because he KNOWS his pony and the other players proved they didn't know theres as well.

Agree that it's all about "flying" the particular aircraft.  It's great to know all the numbers and be well versed in them.  But, if the hands can't translate to flying the aircraft, all the numbers in the world don't mean much.

A common saying out in the real world: "Hamburger is still hamburger, no matter what you wrap it in".  

[Cremator]

Puma I'm a little jealous of the picture.

[TonyJoey]

What about a D with four guns vs six?

Don't waste your time, definitely not worth the loss in killing power vs. any miniscule gain in performance. Just take the Bravo if you want 4 guns, it is a great plane in and of itself and trades a bit of speed for some improved maneuverability.

BnZ, you seem to too easily discount the E-advantage that a Pony will start with at the beginning of most fights. In skilled hands that means almost certain death for the other plane as you should never give them a chance to equalize energy states.  

[TonyJoey]

I have a modest proposal for you Fugi. First, figure out which planes are seeing the most usage in the LWMA, via kills+death. Lusche will have this information at his fingertips for you. Next, find a friend you know to be of your approximate skill level and fight a series of DA matches, using the Pony against the top ten most commonly used LW planes. Then switch out and let the other guy fly the Pony against whatever. At least 3 duels from each of you in the Pony for each matchup. This procedure will tend to eliminate variables resulting from situational luck or pilot skill, and mostly be a test of relative plane performance. Post the films of this experiment when you are done. If, given equal pilots, the Pony wins as often as it loses against other common LW planes, it will tend to support your position. OTOH, if the Pony loses most of these duels with equal pilots, that will tend to support my contention that the P-51D is a fairly mediocre plane for the LWMA.

The MA is not a 1v1 vacuum. There are numerous factors which make the 51 more appealing in the MA. For one, visibility is second to none, with little restricting your view and increasing SA, which is a major factor of MA flying. Secondly, the 6 50's have exceptional ballistics and thus are easy to aim, which makes converting a kill, even very high deflection shots, much easier than if you were to use some of the competition's armament configurations. High speed handling is also exceptional with little loss of control well past the 500 mph mark, allowing high speed dives to escape or catch that 262 that got too cocky. The great fuel is another major factor that lets you loiter over a target area for much longer than in many other rides. Often I'll be over a base and I'll notice one of my countrymen has made two trips to the base while I've been there. You have enough fuel with 75% (or 75% and DTs from a base off the front) to comfortably get to altitude, loiter and engage for 20+ minutes, and then fly home. Much more often will I run out of ammo before I run out of gas. Your top speed allows you to get an E-advantage in most cases, or in others, to drag a higher con away from the main flow of traffic where you'll hopefully be able to suck him down and either escape or kill him. Either way, without the speed to drag the con where you want to fight him, you are just asking to get ganged in the MA. All these factors combined with very effective flaps and an already decently maneuverable plane make it a very effective "killer" in the MA.

Is it one of the best "duelers" in a 1v1 vacuum? No.
Is it one of the best choices for an MA environment? Absolutely.

[Puma44]

Puma I'm a little jealous of the picture.

Yea, the fun meter doesn't even register near high enough.

[bozon]

BNZ, you are wrong on several issues.

First, not all planes turn the same at a given speed and G when they are G limited - turns are almost never sustained at 6G and the high-wingloaded planes have an initial advantage in a stupid flat max-G turn because they will reduce their radius quicker. The P51 can delopy flaps at 400 mph which adds drag when G limited and keep it G limited to a lower speed. It also rolls well at high speeds where many turny planes roll like pigs, so it had an advantage in initiating the turn.

The P-51D in real life was not such a stellar performer. Up high at 30k the P47 out performed it in climb acceleration and turn (speed perhaps not except the 56th jugs), but this does not help the P47 if he cannot outperform the p51 over Berlin and cost much more both to buy and to operate. Down low the P51 was better than the other USAAF planes, but the later F4Us were still better. RAF Spit14 and Tempests did almost everything better than the P51, again except for the fact that they could not do it where it was needed.

In the game the P51D is one of the top fighters. Against what you say the P47 will NOT out turn it in a sustain turn - the 47 can cut a corner better at high speeds because it dumps energy even faster than the 51, and the 47 rolls better so it initiates turns quicker. On top, an empty P47 will not fly for long. The Jug enjoys a short period of "light" fuel load but to have endurance it must carry HUGE amounts of fuel and suffers for most of the sortie. The 51 is much more economic and can last much longer near its optimal weight (i.e. with low weight of fuel) before it is forced to RTB. The only thing I do not like about the 51 are the 6x50s that do not have the insta-kill power and the P51 is not well suited to sustain tracking shots (turny planes are better for that, fast arrow-like planes are better suited to cannon snapshots)

[BaldEagl]

This reminds me of the F4F vs A6M thread in this forum not so long ago.

The stats guys decided the F4F had no chance against the A6M.  I tried to argue that the F4F stood a good chance as long as the pilot knew what he was doing and exploited "all" his advantages, not just those the plane match-up provided.

Soon after that thread died the Pacific War scenario began.  The A6M's flew to a stalemate at Pearl Harbor, at least twice the aircraft allowed were lost by the Japanese at Midway and they were soundly defeated at the Solomon Islands.  So much for wing loading, excess power, etc.,etc., etc.  The little Grumman came out victorious against both A6M2's and A6M3's.

Anyone who tells you a certain plane is incapable of fighing to victory over any other simply doesn't know how to fly it.  I've seen SkatSr and a couple others make a Pony D dance against my Spitfires.  Clearly they didn't give two craps about what the stats said.  Likewise I've flown to victory on several occasions against "double superior" fighters in the 190A-8.

Let the stats boys fly the best of the best LW fighters for fear of running into a superior aircraft and wonder why they still lose.  Learn to fight and it won't matter what you're in.

BTW, I don't fly much anymore but so far this camp I have better stats in the F4F-4 than I do in the Spit IX.  Now which is superior?

[glzsqd]

I flew the P-51D for the first time in awhile the other night and I have to say, what a plane! I love how it picks up speed in a dive, and unlike the Jug, it keeps that speed through lots of maneuvering. Feels a lot like a Ta152 in the sense that you can make so much more out of a Small E advantage than other planes might be able to with that same advantage. And unlike the F4u[my beloved] its not as tempting to blow all your precious speed to get into a turn fight with a kite. I like it better than the 190D, better gun package and its good high speed handling allows me to pull lead with ease, especially when dropping a notch or 2 of flaps.

My only problem is the roll rate seems pretty average, I'm used to plane with superb roll rates such as the F4u P47 P40 190 109 etc.

[Karnak]

BnZs,

Arena impact plays a large role in HTC deciding what the ENY of an aircraft ought to be.  The P-51 gets its ENY because it is so used, almost twice the usage of the Spit XVI.  Which is better air-to-air, probably the Spit, but the P-51D is far, far better air-to-mud.

Arena impact is why the P-51D has an ENY of 5 and the Mosquito VI has an ENY of 30 despite actually being fairly comparable in performance down low where most action in AH takes place.